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Messing With the Sound


YardCrap

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        On the porch with Brain Bromberg and Urquell today watching my birds and my mind has turned yet again to auido. My thought son it change all the time, often depending on how cold the beer is. I remember my "beer snob" days when I never drank really cold beer because experts said it killed the flavor. Maybe, but now I am secure enough to drink beer the way I like it best -> very cold.

 

        ~~~~~~~~~

 

        Audiophiles and people who consider themselves audiophiles claim dramatic difference in the sound of a tune when they change any component. 99% of the time if they paid $$, they claim improvement. They use the other 1% to show they are indeed an audiophile and not biased.

 

        Even small things like different wires and tubes are claimed to do wonders for a system. If you want to feel like an audiophile you can achieve that by just changing the wall cord and claiming the sound is to now "to die for".

 

        I am just an audionut and a "cold" beer drinker, so in a blind test, I often don't hear the difference, and if I do, is it a better? No matter, because if in a blind test 60% choose one over another after consentrated listening, is it a big deal? Swapping carts and tubes and wires and small things can break the audio bank and if in a blind test audiophiles cannot agree then - then WTF? I may have worded that wrong as very, very few "audiophiles" will sit in a blind test where credibility is at risk and now have developed endless reasons not to with help from the internet.

 

        In my opinion the best deal is to assemble the best quality "neutral" sounding system you can afford. That is not easy but with help from people here and other research, it can be done on many $$ levels. The main parts are player, amplifier, and speakers. You must have those. Spend your money there. Everything else in the system like preamps should be added with care and research as they can drag down the system.

 

        A neutral audio system is not the choice of all. It is not the choice of any audiophiles I know. "Neutral" would be the tune sounding just as it did to the person mixing it. No one hears that as systems are different. Even the same system at my house will sound different at yours.

 

        Who is to say the mixer got it right anyway?
 
        A case in point is the Beatles' 'LET IT BE". After several rejected remix attempts, Phil Spector was brought on board and the album has now sold a gazillion copies. In 2003 Paul McCartney remixed it. I have both and cannot say I prefer one over the other. I believe we could agree both these guys know more about music than do I (and maybe you?).

 

        The point is that unless you are at a live acoustic event, you hear a mix of what someone believes you will like.

 

        To that end, why can we not tweak it some ourselves? We do whether we want to or not as a CD will not sound the same in our car as in our house or through earbuds hooked to an ipod.

 

       Back to our original goal of a "neutral system" -> yep, that is not possible. It might not even be desirable, but I believe it is the goal to go for before we begin to tweak/personalize.

 

        The biggest tweak is speakers and then matching the proper amp. Once you have that, players are a big deal ( CD player, Turntable, Computer, etc). Players are a big deal and in most cases we want them to reproduce the infomation on the medium in a neutral or pure way.

 

        No one seems happy with a neutral system. Audiophiles (and even audionuts) soon want to tweak it. My first car was a 1963 VW Beetle, and one of the fun things was the incredible amount of aftermarket easy tweaks for sale to make it "yours" and make you feel special and part of it.

        Today in audio that seems to be the easy tweaks of wires, tubes, etc. I believe that other than making one feel special, they add little value to sound over soild (and less expensive) gear. If an item like this really does change the sound "dramatically", the drama is in your head or it is crap messing up your "neutral" system. One will claim the change good as they just layed out $$$, but ???

 

        The best way to change sound is to experiment with speakers and amps and players. Once you get that together, if you want to mess with the sound (we all do) then look into Equalizers. They were a big deal before most reading this were born. I had one in the late 60s that had a ten foot spring for vibration. (I have been an audionut for a long time).

        An Equalizer can do more than any wires or tubes or etc. It can alter good speakers and amps to a huge degree.

        Is that a good thing? It can be fun. My friend TNRabbit said that if your Equalizer Graph is a smiley face - you have it wrong.

 

        Many things have Equalizer in some form. Bob Carver added them on many of his things. A tone control or his famous Sonic Holography are examples.

        Way back "when" all of us had a separate Equalizer in the rack if for no reason other than seeing the music dance. You don't see them much now, but if you want to mess with tunes - get one. If the person mixing the album can do it - why not you?

      

 

        If you are a "file" player, there are incredible options in software. In my opinion no digital file player on the market can compete with a well set up computer as they can't keep up. Those things are just computers and not as easy to change and update.

        Here are some free Equalizers for computer.

        https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

        https://sourceforge.net/projects/pc-equalizer/

 

        I use Isotope Ozone on my computer and have for years. If you think a NOS tube or $$$ interconnect can change things, this will blow your mind as to the endless possibilities.

 

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        A neutral audio system is not the choice of all. It is not the choice of any audiophiles I know. "Neutral" would be the tune sounding just as it did to the person mixing it. No one hears that as systems are different. Even the same system at my house will sound different at yours.

 

        Who is to say the mixer got it right anyway?
 
        A case in point is the Beatles' 'LET IT BE". After several rejected remix attempts, Phil Spector was brought on board and the album has now sold a gazillion copies. In 2003 Paul McCartney remixed it. I have both and cannot say I prefer one over the other. I believe we could agree both these guys know more about music than do I (and maybe you?).

 

        The point is that unless you are at a live acoustic event, you hear a mix of what someone believes you will like.

 

        To that end, why can we not tweak it some ourselves? We do whether we want to or not as a CD will not sound the same in our car as in our house or through earbuds hooked to an ipod.

 

 
Agree.  Nobody else hears music exactly like I do, I want the option to adjust to what I think sounds good.
 
Back in the early 80's my company was working with Bose on a high quality car audio system for Cadillac.  This was the system that had a Bose designed amplifier mounted inside each enclosure with a 4" driver,  each amp was equalized for the location in the car.  Initially Dr. Bose  insisted we NOT install any tone controls on the radio head unit - the system sounded right to him, so it had to sound the same to everybody.  Cadillac basically told him to pound sand and we included our usual bass and treble controls, which were needed with most music.
 
Mark 
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These days I'm happy to just listen to my tunes on the system(s) I "wasted" a bunch of my middle age fine tuning and perfecting within the bounds of what I deemed enough budget and "swinging dick" wise (just like horses that no one can ride and cowpokes that can never be thrown, there will always be someone who comes up with/acquires a bigger badder amp/speaker/IC/DAC/TT and claims it to be "essential" to your enjoyment of MUSIC). Which is of course high grade BS, and somewhat (that each must decide) a waste of one's valuable (and limited; it's always later than you think..) LISTENING time!
 
Just sitting back (and/or half asleep which is a great and wondrous way to experience tunes!) and just enjoying the experience of all the great music available to us that has been crafted in the last ~400 years of humanity and NOT being distracted by wondering how one might tweak the sound or one's system is a very pleasant and "living in the moment" experience (to those overly consumed with "tweaking", I'd say try it; you might like it!). 
 
The fact that we are blessed with living in a time when we can have these great systems and have easy access to and the ability to choose from virtually all the music that's ever been composed and performed/recorded is an almost miracle that I believe we take for granted and should utilize perhaps a bit more than we do while we fret over the trees of the experience and miss the forest that is all around us (but alas for only a relatively SHORT time - my main point here).
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There are many reasons people enjoy this hobby. It is many things to many people really.
 
You have the music in common in each case, but the reasons are many and no one is wrong in pursuing whatever aspects they enjoy..
 
Some collectors get a thrill out of 78s on a Edison machine do to the collector appeal, over the quality of the reproduction. Personally, I don't care to listen to one but some do. They like the cool mechanics and whatever and thats cool.
 
Some collect based on designers thats product just sounds right to them like Carver, Pass, Johnson, Levingson and on and on. No one is correct in saying they are the best, because we are different animals.
 
I have been to a guys house thats system had glare and brightness that was nearly painful and he thought it was great.
 
Many old school guys stayed away from EQs and claimed they caused phase shifts and a collapse of the soundstage depth and or width. In the 1980s that was often the case in my experience. 
 
Some love digital, some are analog only and have no use for digital audio at all.
 
Some enjoy the tweaking. Just like cars, bikes or any hobby and some spend big on small differences. If they enjoy that and have disposable income then that is good. I have done a bit of tweaking trying some NOS tubes and things because I like to tweak things and hear different brands and construction of tubes. They do have differences, better or not is opinion.
I don't spend heavy on cables because I can't justify the cost vs the difference I hear between a $50 cable and a $500 cable.
The $450 difference is better off kept in my pocket, but thats just me and my personal economics.
 
Some spend more on a cable, than I spend on a car and enjoy it I suppose, or they wouldn't do it. 
 
It a great hobby, so many people enjoy so many aspects of it. We all listen, but some record, do mods and repairs, some tweak solid state, some tweak tubes and on and on and on.
 
What ever people enjoy about the audio hobby its all good. Seen a lot of really cool stuff and systems here in the members systems sections.. I'm just glad to have missed that one with the "swinging dick"..emteeth.gif 
 
 
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Agree with all you said, Jim. Point of my post was not to begrudge anyone who enjoys "tweaking"; something that everyone does to get to where they want to be audio-wise. Was simply presenting a viewpoint (the point of forums...) that anything can be over done and it's easy to forget the main reason for doing tweaks in the 1st place, and remind that we all only have a limited time to 'enjoy the music', so if that's your objective (enjoying music - granted that does not have to be the only point of this "hobby" - which I don't see as a hobby, but that's beside the point..), then you have to acknowledge that perpetual "tweaking" may improve the QUALITY of your listening (a good thing), but also necessarily takes time away from actual listening TIME (a bad thing if again, that's your motive for having a system). 
 
As to the "swinging dick" reference, it would be the height of naivety to deny that that is not a very large part of this "hobby" for most everyone involved. The parallels to hot rod hobbyists and other competitive hobbies to the "audiophile world" are very much apparent. Bragging about/pointing out/admiring the number of, power output (amps) or handling capability (speakers) is rampant throughout this "hobby" even though you can only listen to one system at a time, and output wattage of an amp is not at all the most important factor re its 'musicality'. All these things are directly relatable to the "swinging dicks" in (e.g.) the muscle car world where HP  (watts) and the size of ones classic car collection (how many amps owned) are front and center what is important to that hobby and one's "standing" in it - see "Jay Leno"). Again, no problem with this; just pointing it out and how "tweaking" and component collecting can become counter-productive when over done IF your goal is actually listening to and enjoying MUSIC, and not to die with the most and biggest and baddest musical "toys" (and again, that's ok if that's what floats your boat!). Just be honest enough to admit that it's PART of the reason why we all "lust" after bigger and badder amps, etc., etc.  Party on!
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I see all these points as consistent and coexisting.  Diversity in our interests, and expressing them on the forum is good. I (try) to keep a low profile..., but am pretty out there by some people's standards. I'm good with that.   I also like experiencing the wide variety of perspectives and opinions, and the discussions that occur. Very cool to see perspectives like those coming in from Brazil, Italy, Russia, and other global points, too.  Rock On!!
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I’ve spent most of the last 35 years with at least one foot in the audiophile camp. People on the outside all think I’m crazy so I’ve long since given up on trying to explain the ‘logic’ of what I do to people who rarely seem to want to understand.


I always think of system building in terms of macro and micro. Putting together a well matched set of speakers, power amp, pre-amp and source components is the macro stage and should (if carefully done) take you 95% of the way to where you want to be. Then there’s the micro phase which is moving speakers around, fiddling with spikes/cones and other isolation components, adding power conditioning, tweaking cables, dinkering with TT setup etc etc.


You can do as much or as little of the micro stuff as you want. Some people do nothing, and are content with being 95% of the way to where they want to be. (often oblivious to the possibility that there’s another 5% of performance lurking in their system). Others obsess constantly, trying to wring out that last few percent - often expending a lot of time/energy and money.


It doesn’t matter which camp you fall in and you shouldn’t have to explain or justify your actions to outsiders (assuming you’re not selling your children to pay for things).


Personally, I spent a lot of time messing with the 5% and I KNOW I could hear changes in my system when I moved things, added cones, changed cables or whatever. They weren’t always positive changes and it was that fact which largely convinced me that I wasn’t dealing with some imaginary psycho-acoustic phenomenon where tweaking my system was resulting in changes which took place only in my head.

 

Of course the more resolving your equipment, the more audible the effects of tweaking become. I always catch a lot of flack when I say this, but sometimes it doesn’t surprise me that people can’t hear the difference between a $5 interconnect and something more exotic, when they’re using the cable in a poorly matched system or with midfi electronics.
There, I said it. emdgust.gif
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Very cool conversation and it gives us all a chance to consider the many reasons people enjoy this great hobby. We mostly agree on everything. The topic we see differently are most about human nature and personalities and how they effect the aspects of what they enjoy about a hobby. Very cool talking to people that feel free to talk and not take offense to others thoughts and observations.
 
Well said Dazed and confused. Very good point about the last 5%.. Some chase it till the end of time and some say phuk it spend the time listening. Great perspective..
 
I hear you on the swinging dick thing elgrau.. There are those personalities too. I've seen plenty of car guys with something super badass pull in to a show or cruise night. When several people walk over to the car before he even gets out, their chest pops out and they can hardly walk do to the increased size of their manhood and the weight of the swinging. Lol.
 
I feel a bit sorry for people with those needs, because someone else will always have bigger and better or will shortly. What a tough world this could be for those personalities.
 
I enjoyed sharing a picture of 6 Carver mono blocks in a row the other day. 4 out of the 6 belong to other guys here at CS.  I had no increase in size or swing, but wanted to share the picture while they were at one location. Guys here like pics so what the hell. Some could have perceived that pic as swinging dick and that was a risk. I was sure to disclose that they were not all mine.
 
I'm just an old Tool & Die maker that started my own shop, ran it 18 yrs and sold it.. I will never have the best of anything and have already passed my prime. This stage of life is cool. I'm not competing with anyone, coworkers, competitors, nobody.. I ran the race..
 
It is enjoyable to read about what others have, but I feel no competition or disappointment. If they have spent big buck to get the last 5% of performance thats a good thing.
 
D&C makes a great point, at some point you are hearing "changes" but you have a hard time telling if they are even positive or negative they are just different a little.
 
Very enjoyable conversation IMHO. Thank you guys. 
 
 
 
 
 
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I have enjoyed this thread as well and I thank all of you for your input.  I don't consider myself a "true audiophile" in the purest sense, but I love listening to music and enjoy the gear I have to listen to it with.  To me, the greatest thing about this hobby, if one calls it that, is the limitless possibilities of making music sound like it "should" when it was recorded. Reproducing music in our homes and cars is a lot of work and pleasure, with or without alcohol of any kind!  I call these therapy sessions, where usually myself, Mr. Morgan, and Mr. Carver get together for a meeting in the evening hours and listen to loud music.....grin.  But the greatest part of this is all the components you can obtain to build your system the way you want it, and make it sound like you want it.  Each component does it own part, and can be purchased and tried and tweaked and repaired until we obtain the sound we like to hear.  The cleanest sound possible within our pocketbooks I believe is everyone's goal, and that is a personalized opinion, each different from our own.  What I have learned is that we can respect each others opinions and all enjoy the music, however we like to enjoy it, and learn things from each other that makes our lives and systems better.........grin 

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Dadvw wrote "What I have learned is that we can respect each others opinions and all enjoy the music, however we like to enjoy it, and learn things from each other that makes our lives and systems better.........grin 
 
Agree! As others stated, I too am happy that the posts here stimulated constructive  debate and discussion and nothing else.. We are all "blessed" to have the internet and internet forums in our day that (speaking for myself) without them I NEVER would have had the audio system I have and thus would have missed out on a whole world of musical pleasure that my "pre-forums" system just could not have ever delivered...and the sad thing is that I'd never have even been aware of what I was missing! Thank you, Al Gore, for inventing the internet!  tongue
 
Then not to beat this horse, but another way to 'splain my original point (with all the caveats discussed here..) might be mathematically (I know...shudders all around...Anxious). But thinking about it this way, it might be a classic optimization 'problem' with the two endpoints of 'maximum listening time with the 1st relatively 'crappy' system you owned' vs. 'minimum listening time with a 100% perfectly tweaked system that we spend most all of our time on obtaining'. I'll leave it as an 'exercise for all us students' to do the "variation of this integral and find its maximum" (lol) and find that happy medium mid point between these two extremes that maximizes one's own personal goal of 'maximum musical listening pleasure' Phones
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I know when I found this site, I had a small system, pretty good but not earth shattering, now after 7 years here in this crazy place I have more good sounding gear than I would have thought I would ever own, thank you RichP, thank you BillD, and the rest of you knuckle heads too. :--D

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