Thanks for your input!

HAPPY EAR (Bob)

I will start by saying that this sounds like a fun challenge, but I assure you, it was anything but. I found it difficult, annoying, and frustrating AND it had the added bonus of pretty much burning me out on these albums.  In fact, I was so annoyed with the whole challenge that I neglected to even write it up here.  Then a couple days ago, @MLB111 kindly inquires about the results. Shit. I suppose I should publish them, if for no other reason that to dissuade anyone else from venturing down this path. To make matters worse, I cannot locate my original notes - but I can remember a lot of it, so I enlisted my son’s help (he’s just getting in to the hobby, and starting to learn the ins and outs of high quality audio). I’m  going to break it up into 3 parts - one for each album, mainly because it’s tedious and exhausting, as you’ll soon see. 

The system - Oppo 105 to BillD C1 to Silver 9t pair, to NHT 2.9 speakers.  Kimber and MIT ICs, and MIT Terminator 4 speaker cables. 
 

The album - The Nightfly, by Donald Fagen - SACD, DVDA, FLAC. 
 

Whenever I do something like this, with media OR gear, I tend to listen to the overall presentation of course, but for the real substantive  measures, I tend to focus in on the smallest, most subtle details I can find in the recording, and compare those details - wether it be between speakers, amps, or in this case, SACD and DVDA. * I cannot stress this point enough before I continue - the differences between these discs (SACD & DVDA) are so subtle and so slight that even identifying them was exceedingly painstaking.  Further, these differences would most likely NEVER manifest in normal listening and comparison * For Nightfly, I found the most differences in two tracks: Track #1, I.G.Y., and track #5, New Frontier. 
 

#1, I.G.Y. = at the 52 second mark, right as the intro ends, and the trumpet fades and the vocals start, there is a very slight cymbal that is completely different that the prior cymbal cadence. It’s one strike, slightly left of center and a couple feet behind the speaker plane. The same cymbal strike happens again at 1:25, 2:10, and a few more times later in the track (sorry, I didn’t feel like listing them all).  This cymbal is more prominent in the DVDA. It is a bit more “buried” in the SACD version, and not as defined.  At the 2:08 mark, there is a snappy bass “flurry”.  The SACD presents this with a tiny bit more “pop”, and a better “edge” the the string plucks.  As I listened to this track for perhaps the 20th time in this sitting (ugh), I turned to my son half way through and said “is that a tambourine ?”  I have listened to this track many times in the past, and I don’t EVER remember a tambourine.  Back to the start of the track, and sure enough, no tambourine. It actually comes in at the 1:28 mark. It’s subtle, and EASILY mistaken for a cymbal. The DVDA does a better (slightly) job of defining the individual cymbal-ettes (?) around the circumference of the tambourine than does the SACD. 
 

#5, New Frontier = At 1:30 (and again at 2:40) there is a distinctly different guitar sound solid.y in the left channel. It’s tone is so different that it is almost distracting. The SACD did a better job of blending this into the overall presentation - However I’m not positive that’s a good thing, so take it for what it’s worth. In the intro, there is a cowbell in the percussion. On the DVDA, it sounds more like a cowbell - on the SACD, it lacks some of the “metallic” overtones, rendering it almost more like a wood block, than a cowbell. There is also a harmonica solidly in the right channel in the intro. On the DVDA, this harmonica is considerably more forward and distinguishable. On the SACD, it is markedly buried in the mix of other sounds in the right side of the soundstage - THIS is the most significant difference in the two discs.

Overall, the edge here goes to the DVDA - the subtleties noted above, and a very slight edge in overall clarity and separation of the many instruments is the reason I feel the SACD comes up ever so slightly short. Again, I cannot stress the small measures here - it literally took hours to determine the differences. As for CD and/or FLAC, the differences there are significant - width of sound stage, detail in the specifics listed above, and overall dynamics give a clear edge the either of the high res formats over CD or FLAC. 

I would like to extend a special thank you to Rodney (weitrhino) for giving me a Lightscribe disc drive, which enabled me to etch the discs for a professional look, and speed up production considerably. Thank you sir!

Here is the final track list and accompanying notes for you to refer to while listening:

The Road To Hell, by Chris Rea. Submitted by B-Man

The bass line is low, clean and well balanced with the rest of the disc; his voice has a bit of a rasp that sounds "right" on a good setup; dynamic range in general is very good. Definitely a reference song for me when auditioning a system.

Ride Across The River, by Dire Straits. Submitted by B-Man

Great example of a dynamic recording. Great for revealing system noise or high frequency issues / harshness. Good bass moments as well.

Don’t Eat The Yellow Snow / Nanook Rubs It Off, by Frank Zappa. Submitted by SteveFord

You'll know within 30 seconds if the amp/preamp/speakers, whatever is really good or bites. You've got the swirling snow sounds and then Frank's voice with Tina Turner and the Ikettes doing the background vocals. Is the bass too light or too heavy, are the vocals up front or recessed, does Frank sound life sized or like a dwarf, does his guitar sound like a razor blade or is it dull sounding, how are the dynamics, etc. Those are the tracks that I use.

Flight Of The Cosmic Hippo, by Bela Fleck. Submitted by Fill35U

For the low notes of the bass guitar, contrast of the piano, the dynamic range.

Too Rich For My Blood, by Patricia Barber. Submitted by Toy Maker

No notes have been submitted for this track. If you have a write-up of what you listen for, post it as a comment, and I’ll insert it here!

When You Say Nothing At All, by Allison Krauss. Submitted by Daddyjt

The real magic in this track is right in the first minute or so. The opening guitar should sound very crisp and smooth. It should not sound at all muddy or dull. When she starts singing, you should hear every detail, right down to the intake of breath. In the second sentence she sings, "…. You can light up the dark, listen for the "k" in dark. It should be a very subtle "kiss" of a sound, but very well defined. On some systems, it ranges from inaudible, to a muddy, incoherent sound. When the drums kick in, and she really opens up with her voice, your system should be able to handle the dynamic increase in volume without making you want to turn it down. It should be a powerful, slightly scary moment, as the overall system output jumps significantly. On MANY systems, this moment will come across as shrill, and very unpleasant. The bass should also be solid and deep, but not boomy. This is my number one track for judging equipment – Enjoy!

Brother Where You Bound, by Supertramp. Submitted by Gene C

The clarity in Ricks singing at the beginning before the drums hit. The system has to knock me out of my chair with that song.

Private Investigations, by Dire Straits. Submitted by Doh-R

Quiet details, highly defined passages, good dynamic range.

Are You Receiving Me, by Golden Earring. Submitted by BluesMan57

Great imaging and separation. Give it a listen you will be surprised.........

Battlestar Galactica Theme, by Erich Kunzel & The Cincinnati Pops Orchestra. Submitted by Daddyjt

This track plays BIG, right from the opening drum hits. This will push your system to the lowest depths it can reach. What makes it useful, and somewhat unique, is the fact that while the bass is at maximum excursion, there is A LOT of other information being reproduced – from strong horns, to subtle flutes and triangle strikes. You should hear it ALL – a veritable buffet of sound. If your system is lacking power or dynamic output, the bass will rob all the power, and leave everything else flat. The last 20 seconds are a real test for ANY system!

Your Latest Trick, by Dire Straits. Submitted by Daddyjt

Outstanding trumpet intro, with a seamless transition to saxophone in the intro. Listen for the trumpet fade-out note, right before the sax and drum kit start. It should keep a clear tone, and not become "nasal" as it fades out. There are crystal clear cymbals, to the point that you should be able to distinguish the different types of cymbals being utilized. When the singing starts, you should actually hear the guy playing the sax walk away from the mic, and fade into the back of the stage – it should actually fall back away from you in your soundstage, and not just diminish in volume. The bass should be incredibly tight, and you should actually hear the bass drum skin being struck. This is one of the most well recorded tracks I have ever come across.

Symphony #3, by Henryk Gorecki. Submitted by dcl

Female soprano & orchestra in a moving performance–you will forget the gear & room when the sound is spot on or otherwise be up fidgeting.

On The Road Again, by Katie Melua. Submitted by PDR

All her material is very well recorded.....the "Dramatico" label.

Norwegian Wood, by Patricia Barber Submitted by ?

This one came to me in a PM that I deleted – Please post a comment with your notes on the track, and I will insert them!

The Forecast Calls For Pain, by Robert Cray. Submitted by B-Man

Good recording; clean bass line; good imaging capabilities.

Ouverture, by Robin Vassy. Submitted by Weitrhino

French/Iranian jazz. Vassy creates many of his own instruments so the sounds in this track fall outside the ordinary. I listen particularly to the hard plectrum sound from the plucked steel strings and the beautiful decay of the fading vibration sometimes with multiple strings in harmony. Additional instruments appear and disappear sometimes panning and sometimes precisely imaged in three dimensions. As the piece progresses the full band kicks in. The bass is deep and resonant but with a softer touch that evokes fingers in contrast to the hard plectrum sound of the other string instrument. This is an album that sounds particularly good on ribbons. The whole album is amazing and has the advantage of presenting something fresh.

http://robinvassy.bandca...m/album/bon-voyage

Dirty, by Johnny Winter. Submitted by Blues Pwr

Originally released on vinyl in 1974, the song "Dirty" was a bonus track on the remastered CD released in 2008 from the original LP master tapes, which creates a crisp and clean recording. This song is just Johnny on acoustic slide guitar and vocals and a flute player(Jeremy Steig an American Jazz Flutist). Often criticized for his lack of vocal prowess, this song is perfect for his south Texas twang/growl. The flute playing is incredible, at times light and airy and the next second dirty and raspy. It contrasts sharply with the dark lyrics and Johnny’s acoustic slide guitar work. The flute playing will test the upper ranges of your system and reveal any weakness's it may have. Should be a real test for ribbon and super tweeters. This is unlike any other Johnny Winter song out there, which is probably why it was added as a bonus track, because it wouldn't fit on any other release. Well worth a listen, if you’re curious what real blues are supposed to sound like.

Hush, Hush, Hush, by Paula Cole & Peter Gabriel. Submitted by Daddyjt

This is a great track for sibilance (the correct reproduction of the "s" sound). Paula’s voice is almost a female falsetto, and can come across as very grating in poor speaker/amp combinations. A great deal of the information on this track sits right in the cross-over region on 2 way speakers. As such, it will test the anomalies created by your cross-over design. Peter’s voice carries a soft, yet grainy feel, and should seem to anchor the entire track. All-in-all, a great duo, and a nice listen.

Son Of A Preacher Man, by Dusty Springfield. Submitted by kve777

For sibilance checking - Dusty Springfield's "Son of a Preacher Man" as found on the Pulp Fiction soundtrack. I use various tracks on that CD for testing, but this is my go to track for speakers. I've passed on many deals just because this song sounded crappy.

Powaqqatsi, by Philip Glass. Submitted by dcl

A mid-piece crescendo merges vocal chorus & orchestra over the deep ostinato (hey, its Philip Glass). So, massed basses, percussion over which the chorus could be shrill at volume.

Walking On Sacred Ground, by Janis Ian. Submitted by Daddyjt

This track is great for testing mid-bass response. When done right, it is warm and inviting with a solid low end kick. The vocals should float above all the other instruments, and especially the bass line. Her voice should have a delicate, yet powerful sound. When done poorly, the bass is very muddy and ill-defined, and the lower notes lack any kind of kick – the whole thing turns into a dull mess that is rather unpleasant to listen to. This track also has the nasty ability to showcase rattles within your system and room.

The Children’s Crusade, by Sting. Submitted by Daddyjt

This track exhibits great texture – from Sting’s raspy voice, to the seemingly off-key piano. Good crescendos before the chorus take a lot of power to keep the different sounds separate, and not allow them to collapse into a jumbled mess. Listen for separation throughout, and solid transients.

Frequency Sweeps, Low to High.

Great for detecting and isolation rattles and resonances. Be careful at the higher frequencies, as prolonged sine waves can damage tweeters!

Again, I’d like to thank everyone here for their help and input – I think this first go is a success, and I’m very proud of the results! Thinking maybe we do this again next year, but I’ll let all of you be the judge of whether or not we do it again…



Interesting video. Is Nyquist Theorem outdated? 

I'm not asking which format is better then whatnot. I am curious how the peeps here get their music on what formats. Since you guys have me back to stereo listening (thanks to all btw). I have started to look around and cd's seem to by hit or miss on so many of these cd format.

Mofi was around but certainly that was about it for different re-masterings. Now I see many formats but no real one stop shopping as it seems for titles seem to be very limited runs. Also anyone here buying hi-res digital recordings as their primary listening? If anyone wants to throw in about discs and the format they're available in?

This is not about the best format. But if you like a certain format for whatever reason it would be most appreciated. For overall selection from what I have seen digital seems to offer the widest selection.

I know things like mastering made a good difference back in the day. I am assuming that playing field is more or less equalized. I'm a rocker with blues and soul filling in spaces. Which is why I talk about limited selection.

If someone finds Audio Fidelity subscription enjoyable let me know. Don't let my taste taint what you like. I'm just looking at the playing field trying to figure what's best form.

One time my ex came home while I was listening to an lp with only hunting horns. The look on her face was worth the price of admission. I know I still laugh about it. She probably still thinks maybe I should be committed. Not really but the look and the next few questions were priceless.

If there's something you don't like about a format. Please no comments like "Robust yet naive with an hint of spice on your aural sensations".

So let me know if you rather not be in the spotlight send a message, text, email. Carrier pigeons are not always reliable.

https://www.mofi.com/product-p/udsacd2136.htm

The reason I am wanting to do this, is that I have seen it stated multiple times, on various forums, that there is no audible difference between SACD/DVD-A and Redbook CD.  This is not my experience generally, but I have never done an exhaustive A/B comparison.  If I do end up doing it, it would be methodical, much like the aforementioned speaker shootout - I may even enlist the help of my son, in order to do a blind comparison.

Any thoughts from the group? 

https://www.mofi.com/product-p/udsacd2187.htm

It still performs admirably as an audio player - for now - and it will henceforth be relegated to an honored position in another room, delivering quality audio to one of my favored stacks of vintage hifi. (It was either that or the Fist of Doom, and I'm still rightly embarrassed about that whole thing with the M1.0t.) 

What I need is a Blu-ray player that can handle SACD - and DVD-Audio and 4kHD if possible - whilst giving me a nice pair of shiny RCA jacks to hook into an amp for when I decide to show people that stereo never went away. If the player can handle DolbyVision and HDR10 and all the rest of the alphabet buzzies, so much the better. 

I know everyone seems to be getting out of the physical media market, but there has to be something available at a reasonable cost. I would think under $500 would suffice. Sony makes the UBPX1100ES (why can't they just give it a proper name, like "Hank" or "Nigel"?) but I have no reason to trust Sony, based on my previous experience with their media players. (Dreadful things, they are. Enough to make a parson swear.)

As my player was 7 years old, I'd gladly accept something 2-3 years old, if it were new-old-stock, and from an authorized retailer. Would anyone have a potential direction they'd be willing to point me towards?

EDIT... I cannot seem to find the aformentioned 2 channel SACD option so... its back to block 1 this now became the DVD-A rabbit hole

After researching and looking into Network Player, The Cambridgge Azur 851n really fit the bill in what I needed. It originally started with looking for a new CD/SACD player and that alone had big price tag inregards to any kind of upgrade from my Oppo 95 cd/SACD player. I also was looking for a new New Network server since the Polk 1 omni was driving me crazy. It was a pain in the ass to get hooked up to the network, and then it would just drop off. So I was basically not using it any longer. I am going to use this as  a DAC, and use the Oppo as a transport. It's gotten great reviews, it was a little more pricey than what I originally was looking for, But I purchase one of these on ebay, through Cambridges site and got a 

"Refurbished" unit for $1,124.99. I should get it next week some time, so I'll keep you posted with my thoughts and more important how it sound. If anyone out there is familiar with the Cambridge  Azur 851n, It would be great to hear your thoughts.

Here’s where it gets interesting. I figured what the hell, I’ll just buy a new copy. Amazon - not available. Ok, eBay, where find two listings:

Well shit - as the title says, if only I’d known....  so I come before the greatest collection of audio minds and experiences that I know of, asking how is the best way to go about restoring this gem?  The disc plays fine, so should I just leave it alone?  Obviously, experimentation is not an option - if I restore it, it must be a proven method...

Thanks guys - if only I’d known??

(This might be the one to break me out of my PF malaise ?)

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/133316/Pink_Floyd-Wish_You_Were_Here-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD

Do people hear try to obtain quality source material? Are there formats you like or dislike? I buy my musical taste and purchase quality the same.

Mofi offers SACD for instance. Last week for instance I bought an immersion box set of Pink Floyd Wish you were hear. The box includes DVD audio offers the album in Quad and 5.1 in 2 different bitrates also a LPCM stereo. With among the Blu-ray it also includes the same Quad, 5.1 in HD audio of 96kb / 24 bit. It just arrived so I offer no opinion. If one likes the music and has the equipment this certainly could test some of the fidelity questions.

Also I bought Dire Straits Brothers in arms using K2 method. It seems so far all the k2 cd's are Japanese made. The sound is obviously excellent right from the start. That I've played a couple of times and impressed. No definitive opinion. Because another item I purchased was a 20th anniversary edition which offered SACD/SACD Surround and cd on the disk. 

Does anyone else listen like this? I'm far far the discerning listener. The Beatles Sgt Pepper was like a new listening experience. When the quality jumps out like that I like to hear from others and maybe some general impressions. To me the regular release I thought so impressive when remembering to the vinyl in the 80's.

Clarity and so natural without the tape hiss. Much better than the first remastered cd's. The multitracking so clear. I could go on but those interested probably more than experienced this many times over.

Anyone else wants to offers their own experiences on this?

I can't be the only one, how? where? Store box sets? I'm trying to be space efficient are stackable LP racks the only real choice. My bookshelves are full of books. I know imagine that.

As the space laid out if stackable is the best choice it would be along the wall behind the speaker. I was trying to keep both sides the same behind the SL-3's. Otherwise I believe its across the far end (guessing 24 feet or so).

So how far do some travel from music to the stereo? I know some of us don't bounce up like we use to. Of course most would want the music close to the equipment. I'm trying to figure what would work for me and maybe others are curious about storage ideas. Looking at LP's box sets obviously no issue. But CD's and CD box sets are indeed 2 different.

I think most would prefer having the music as close as possible even though their size one would not have them stored together. Of course there are huge size differences I think LP size is a good point to approximate with. Others may have better alternatives.

Hey ease of comparable storage you preserve A-Z for your collection is another plus for the vinyl.