What is the proper pf setting for my cartridge and a C-1 preamp?

[stevenlevel 146]

I'm using a Technics SL-Q3 with my Carver C-1 mm phono stage. Does anyone know the proper pf setting I should use on the back of the C-1?

 

I have it at 300pf right now and it sounds pretty good. I got that setting from a online post so I have no clue if that information is accurate or not.

 

Thanks, Steve 

[loner_t 2,568]

Does the following extract from the C1 manual (Page 33) help?

 

 

[kve777 6,657]

Due to a lack of published specs, I set to the middle, listen to DSOTM, if it sound right I leave it, if not I try the other setting and use the one that sounds the best. It's a good idea to write down the cartridge/arm/cables/setting for each change, so you can go back faster in a swap, and have a good starting place on the next unknown.

[stevenlevel 146]

Thanks Kev as usual you are there to give me some great advice.

 

I had some issues getting on the site for a while and could not figure out why? Still don't know if it was on my end or if the site was down for an upgrade? 

[RodH 4,820]

The site is undergoing a major upgrade. Access has been spotty.

 

Hang in there it will be dealt with soon.  

[stevenlevel 146]

Due to a lack of published specs, I set to the middle, listen to DSOTM, if it sound right I leave it, if not I try the other setting and use the one that sounds the best. It's a good idea to write down the cartridge/arm/cables/setting for each change, so you can go back faster in a swap, and have a good starting place on the next unknown.

 

Sorry Kev, what does DSOTM mean? 

[RodH 4,820]

Dark Side of the Moon. 

[stevenlevel 146]

Dark Side of the Moon. 

 

Thanks I just didn't see that

 

But I have both the vinyl and CD versions of that excellent recording

 

I have two questions: In my Shure M97xE cartridge instructions it states "Optimum Load" including tonearm and amplifier input capacitance 47 k-ohms 200 to 300 pf per channel

 

1:So is 300 pf the proper setting on my C-1? I have it set there now and have been doing some vinyl listening tests but I have not played DSOTM which should allow me to get it right.

 

2: Has anyone used the KLH 7000A or the SAE 5000A with their Carver preamp and turntable? I had a SAE 5000 back in 1980 but sold it in 1985 when I bought my first CD player. I gave up on vinyl after 75% of my records were badly warped when I moved and didn't get the records out of my car before it was 95 degree's and 1:00 PM.

 

So I ended up selling my old Tech SL-Q303 table, the Shure M97 cartridge and my SAE 5000 and about 75 records for almost nothing.

 

I love vinyl again and have learned to keep it nice and clean but I have a few that still have the ocational annoying pop or click and wanted to know if anyone ever used one of these? Which is better? Do they affect the playback sound in a negative way? Sorry more than 2 questions.

 

Thanks, Steve 

[UncleMeat 1,173]

No, 300pF is almost always too high, use the 0pF or 180pF setting. Try 180, then switch to 0. If the sound improves then leave it at 0. Usually if the cartridge is over-loaded it will sound muddy.

[kve777 6,657]

 

 

 

Dark Side of the Moon. 

 

Thanks I just didn't see that

 

But I have both the vinyl and CD versions of that excellent recording

 

When setting up your cartridge, I highly recommend that you use the vinyl.

 

I use DSOTM because I know it so well. Use whatever your favorite vinyl is, so you know when it's 'just right'. 

[kve777 6,657]

Steve- How do you clean your records? That's the MOST important thing to do to get rid of noise. Don't obsess, as those noise reduction devices can, and usually do, degrade the sound. I got rid of all of that stuff a long time ago. The 'airyness' or sense of space was gone. The occasional pop or click just reminds me of how nice vinyl really is.

[stevenlevel 146]

Yeah, I just realized that having the .flac CD version is pretty meaningless when setting up vinyl

 

Upon further review "The call stands" for either 0 pf or 150 pf which is what you and a few others stated would be the best setting. 300 pf is too high 

 

I have a Disk Washer that I use with 91% rubbing alcohol if a record needs to be really cleaned.

 

I don't use rubbing alcohol very often, but some new records need it to get rid of any residue from the stamping.

 

Now I have read about using dish soap and filtered water, but it's so hard to do without a real record cleaner that will hold the record properly.

 

Any advice is very welcomed  

 

 

 

 

[RodH 4,820]

As for the capacitance loading you need to consider the cables between the cart and the preamp. These can often add upwards of 80-100pF on their own. Start at the lowest available preamp setting and give it a listen, then up the setting. Go with what sounds best (to you) not an arbitrary number and you should be happy. 

[stevenlevel 146]

Steve- How do you clean your records? That's the MOST important thing to do to get rid of noise. Don't obsess, as those noise reduction devices can, and usually do, degrade the sound. I got rid of all of that stuff a long time ago. The 'airyness' or sense of space was gone. The occasional pop or click just reminds me of how nice vinyl really is.

 

Somehow I knew I was going to get that response. I used the SAE 5000 back in 1980 and since I only listened to heavy metal music I could never tell if was messing  with the sound or not.

 

That said, my dad never bought one and that should have been enough for me to know they could alter the sound.

 

After all my dad bought the C-1 and the hafler DH-500 as well as a Technics SL-1600 MKII with a Shure V-15 IV 

 

He also bought a DBX decoder but it was only for DBX encoded LP's that were rare and expensive back in the early 80's but they did sound great. They added more overall dynamic range and limited some of the vinyl noise at the beginning, end or in-between tracks.

 

I wish he would have kept the V-15 cartridge and his DBX encoder and encoded records since they would have been mine     He said he can't remember what he did with his table or his plentiful vinyl collection. Too bad for me

[UncleMeat 1,173]

I wouldn't use 91% alcohol on a vinyl record, ever. Alcohol is a powerful solvent, and although people say it does not damage vinyl, if it touches other types of plastic it can quickly dissolve/melt them. I would not risk it doing anything to the vinyl surface. Just use distilled water, or discwasher D4 for cleaning when water does not lift residues like a fingerprint on a used record.

[HappyTrails 498]

I use IPA in my US cleaner along with x-100 without issue but its only 4-6 oz in 128 oz of DI water and 10mL of X-100. I use a very small amount, maybe 1/2 oz in the spin clean I use as a rinse after US cleaning, then air dry.

 

I've cleaned over 500 with the last 300+ using the US / Spin Clean without issue.  I clean all albums, including new.

 

You can browse through my DIY ultra sonic cleaner thread, I have some shot under the scope.

Ultra Sonic 

 

Too much IPA will bleach the vinyl

[UncleMeat 1,173]

In the photos you posted, the Isopropyl Alcohol bleaching appeared to etch the surface of the vinyl, and that was at a much lower concentration than 91%, correct?

 

I bought some 5H17 from local Fry's electronics recently; called "Vinyl Styl" cleaner.  Don't use it.  It was leaving residue in the grooves that was being picked up by the stylus.  I had to go back to distilled water and wash the records multiple times to get the residue off. 

[stevenlevel 146]

I wouldn't use 91% alcohol on a vinyl record, ever. Alcohol is a powerful solvent, and although people say it does not damage vinyl, if it touches other types of plastic it can quickly dissolve/melt them. I would not risk it doing anything to the vinyl surface. Just use distilled water, or discwasher D4 for cleaning when water does not lift residues like a fingerprint on a used record.

 

If you go read on Vinyl Engine or just google what to use to clean new or used records you will see that 91% rubbing alcohol and distilled water (1/2 a gallon of distilled water and a pint of 91% alcohol) are the 2 main ingredients to mix for good record cleaning solution.

 

As I mentioned I got the alcohol idea from "Vinyl Engine" about 3 years back. I would never just guess at a record cleaning solution, and did plenty of research before using a strong solvent like rubbing alcohol.

 

The number one ingredient in the Diskwasher D4 cleaning fluid is alcohol with a few other ingredients. I recall my father using rubbing alcohol since he found out that the D4 used it as it's main cleaning ingredient as well many years ago.

 

But using it thus far has not damaged any of my records or my cartridge since it's also used to clean my stylus as stated on Vinyl Engine as well.

 

I can understand your not wanting to use a solvent on your records, but people have been using it for many years without any damage to vinyl and without leaving any solvent's behind after it evaporates.

 

So while I respect your knowledge base a great deal, in this case I went with what I read from many different people on Vinyl Engine since after all they specialize on everything vinyl 

[RodH 4,820]

I believe what he meant was using undiluted 91% iso directly on the vinyl. 

[stevenlevel 146]

I believe what he meant was using undiluted 91% iso directly on the vinyl. 

 

Yeah, I got that and yes I do. But I only use a small amount on the Diskwasher brush, using it like the D4 solution.

 

I don't saturate the record with iso. I use a small amount and by the time I'm done the alcohol is absorbed by the cleaning brush or evaporates leaving behind no residue.

 

I guess I'll try it your way and see how that works out. I never mind trying new methods and am open to new ideas.

 

I'll have to buy the proper items and make a batch and see how it works out. That said I'm not afraid to use 91% iso in small amounts as a replacement for the D4 solution that came with my Disk Washer brush.

 

It works great for getting rid of oil based finger prints and does no damage what so ever. But too each their own..... 

[HappyTrails 498]

I agree with UM, I would not use straight IPA on my albums.

 

 

UM to answer your question, that was a high concentration of IPA to DI with no x-100 if I recall.  

[kve777 6,657]

I believe in a mix of isopropyl, water and a tiny bit of detergent. Spray bottles, a good brush and heat work wonders.

From Stereophile.com by Jan Vigne:

Jan Vigne

Offline

Last seen: Never ago

Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 3:57pm

Re: DIY Record Cleaning Solution and Brush?

I've posted this here several items in the past, those posts can be found in the archives. But here goes again ...

There are several excellent cleaning solutions to be found on the aftermarket and they should be considered for extremely valuable discs or extremely grimey discs. However, for everyday cleaning I use a simple homebrew formula that can be put together for a few dollars.

I begin with store bought distilled water - only distilled water not drinking, spring or any other sort of water that would include added impurites. Distilled water can be purchased for about $0.80 a gallon. Start here and listen after a few discs have been cleaned, you can certainly buy higher purity water and reclean your distilled water discs if need be but you reach a point of diminishing returns rather quickly IMO and unless you are at the MF level of components I doubt you'll notice any problems with distilled water, it has been the standby for decades.

To one cup of distilled water I add two drops of All "Free - Clear" laundry detergent (no fragrances, no phosphates, no coloring agents). The detergent acts only as a surfactant which serves to break the water's surface tension. This allows the the water to flow smoothly into the record groove - you'll see how to notice the correct amount of surfactant a bit later - but actually the detergent does no cleaning itself so do not get into the thought process that if a little bit is good, then a lot more is better. You simply need to break the surface tension of the water. That's all you need to do. The cleaning action is done by the water, which also holds the removed dirt is supension unitl it can be vaccumed away and, if necessary, the action of a soft cleaning brush or cloth. The resulting combination of one cup water and two drops of detergent should result in very little sudsing when applied to the disc surface. If you get more than a few suds, you've added too much detergent and you'll have more trouble rinsing this solution from the bottom of the groove. Remember, the surfactant is there only to allow the surface tension of the water to be relaxed. Once again there are high end surfactants available at higher cost but let your ears be your guide as to how much you hear vs. how much you pay.

That is my basic cleaning solution.

If I have very dirty records that this solution will not clean to my satisfaction - typically used LP's with finger smudges or mould - I'll add no more than 1 ounce of alchohol to my then 7 ounces of distilled water, IMO the less alchohol you can get away with the better you are. Here I will spring for the more costly and slightly more pure Everclear over the cheaper isopropyl from the drugstore. A bottle of Everclear should run less than $20 and clean hundreds of LP's.

I then warm this solution in the microwave to get it quite warm to the touch, not steaming but quite warm. The solution is placed in a spray bottle and another spray bottle is filled with just distilled water to be used as a rinse.

I lay out two thick bath towels folded into pads large enough to support the LP. Placing side one of the disc face up on the first towel, I liberally spray the warm cleaning solution over its surface keeping as much as possible off the label area. This isn't just a thin line of solution you swipe around the disc but a thorough bathing of the groove in cleaning solution. When the mixture is right you'll see the solution flows into the groove and covers the surface of the disc rather than puddling up as you'll find happens with the water only rinse.

I have two main cleaning brushes/towels. For everday cleaning I use a microfiber towel that has been dampened with distilled water, this serves me well on basically new or already clean discs. A few strokes in the direction of the groove and then back in the opposite direction and then side one is flipped over and the process is repeated on the second side. The next level of cleaning comes from a VPI brush* which is reserved for the most difficult to clean discs. If you use a brush, make certain you rinse it in a separate container after each disc side so you don't transfer crud form one disc to the next. If you're using the microfiber towel, just constantly turn the towel as you clean and eventually run the towel under some tap water to rinse it and then re-wet the towel with distilled water before wringing it out and cleaning the next disc.

At this point the disc is ready to be run on the vacuum machine. You'll find your own method for the machine but I did place a few felt pads on the top corners of my machine to protect the disc should it slip out of my hands while I'm working with the machine. I do a bi-directional rotation of the disc on my cleaning machine ending with the machine being shut off and the disc being slowly rotated to an end point and lifted up as the machine's vacuum dissipates to zero. The LP is now ready to go back into a clean sleeve.

If you'd care to be a bit more thorough in your cleaning, now is the time for a rinse before the disc goes back into a sleeve. Place the LP on your second bath towel and spray with the clear distilled water, thoroughly wetting the surface as you did with the cleaner. Take a second dampened microfiber towel and give a light brush to spread the rinse water - without a surfactant to break the water tension you'll notice the rinse water tends to puddle up. Flip the disc to rinse the other side and then transfer to the vacuum machine for drying.

After a few LP's you'll need to turn the towels to find a fresh surface and, if you're cleaning dozens of LP's in one night, you'll probably want a few extra towels on hand to transfer out when the originals get soaked and dirty. The same goes for the microfiber towels you use for cleaning.

Mix only enough solution to stay warm while you work and keep the mixture warm if need be by returning it to the microwave. IMO it's the warmth of the solution that does the most good here over and above the basic solution itself. There are steam cleaners on the market for LP cleaning and you might want to experiment with this method but you'll have to be careful not to lift the label with that method. I think you'll find the warm water cleaner to be satisfactory in almost all cases.

For those of you who remember the original Keith Monks machine the solution used there was a simple combination of distilled water and isopropyl alchohol. The mixture was, I believe, 70/30. I have numerous discs that were cleaned with this machine that are still in excellent shape today. I do, however, have a few recent audiophile pressings that were left with a very slight whitish haze when cleaned with an alchohol mix as described above. You decide, if you can obtain good results without the alchohol, the alchohol is for the most part used as a drying agent and not much more. With the quality of the current crop of vacuum machines I don't feel alchohol has a real place in your cleaning regimen.

Many manufacturers of cleaning solutions have a trial size you can purchase. It's well worth your time to experiment but I think you'll find good results without spending too many dollars.

* A substitute for the VPI brush is a soft, 4" nylon bristle paint brush from the hardware store. Some people cut these down to shorten and stiffen the bristles ever so slightly. IMO the VPI brush is well worth the money, lasts almost forever for the average user and does a superior job to any other brush I've tried which include quite a few.

And remember, if your cartridge is not built with a bonded stylus, to use a good stylus cleaner after a night's worth of listening.

[kve777 6,657]

Some of us received Tergitol from Greg at the Holiday Meet in VA. Recommended by the Library of Congress. I have yet to try it.

Here's a video:

 

[aslan7 954]

Another alternative which was invented by TT legend George Merrill, and recommended by famed audio reviewer, John Potis (who passed from cancer in 2008) is the Gem Dandy.  I can't speak highly enough about this product which cleans; protects the labels; and is cost effective.  Every LP I own (new or old) gets the treatment before I use as it is easy, safe, and effective.   

Rinse with distilled water...dry...and enjoy the music (on Carver equipment of course  )

 

George Merrill's Cleaning System 

 

 

[stevenlevel 146]

I really appreciate all the comments and new ways you all clean your vinyl.

 

I'm surly open to trying new methods and avoid the highly concentrated alcohol since so many people here don't think it's a good idea.

 

So I'll happily try several of the posted methods and once again thanks Kevin for posting some good information, that forces me to be more open minded than I was before.

 

I didn't mean to come across as a jerk, if I indeed did. Sometimes I have trouble excepting constructive criticism and need to work on that more and more without taking comments so personally.

 

Thanks guys