New Bob Carver Stereo amp. Hi Res picture. KT 120 plus others added.

[Nahash5150 4603]

Quote

Quote

Jim, I am curious how much a difference there is with cryogenic treated tubes vs the non-treated tubes.

 

The guy from Upscale Audio was asked that. They offer that option. His comment was people that order them cryo treated tend to reorder them cry treated. That was about all he said.

 

 

 

Never tried them Barry. I doubt if personally a change could be heard, but surely there are others with finer perceptions than mine.

 

Deep freeze is common in metallurgy and is sometimes combined with heat treating operations. It could be conceivable that tube life could increase. Seems like a logical claim, but I haven't seen any test on tube life.

 

At our age, with the DC Restorer circuit, the tubes will outlive us anyway. Lol. We are good to go..

 

 

Please provide scientific information that describes what this process does and how it could benefit vaccum tubes. 

[fxbill 161]

From just a "listening" standpoint I have never heard any difference between cryo tubes and standards, but perhaps there are differences in longevity or other "measurable" differences. I don't believe that you can always "measure" what you  hear.

[Ar9Jim 2192]

 

This shows the science behind the process. I have no idea how the changes in metal would effect a tube performance or life span but a change in the materials does occur.  

[fxbill 161]

Quote

Quote

I had a chance to check out some Maggies that belong to

 

Quote

Quote

Measurements needed to support claims. 

 

 

I don't measure everything that I listen to. My opinions are based on what "I" hear. Others are welcomed to disagree. As once stated the the old film "Roadhouse"..... "opinions vary!"....( Whoops....almost misquoted a film I worked on...)

[Rod H 2425]

This guy had questions: effectrode.com

 

I never heard any real difference beyond how pretty much every tube sounds a little different, but have not spent much time with cryo'd tubes so YMMV.

[kve777 2862]

 

 

This guy had questions: effectrode.com

 

I never heard any real difference beyond how pretty much every tube sounds a little different, but have not spent much time with cryo'd tubes so YMMV.

  Effectrode.com

[Ar9Jim 2192]

Quote

This guy had questions: effectrode.com

 

Quote

I never heard any real difference beyond how pretty much every tube sounds a little different, but have not spent much time with cryo'd tubes so YMMV.

 

 

Guy makes some good points. -300F does seem like a bad idea for an assembly made from a variety of different materials.   

[Rod H 2425]

He did note that if it survives it was likely well assembled.

 

This discussion has gotten a fair bit off topic. Hopefully some of the membership will find a way to listen to these amps and offer up reviews of the results of the tube rolling!

[Ar9Jim 2192]

Yeah. Think I'll let mine cool to room temp and not put them through the extra -370F temp swing. Every winter is a reminder of what cold temps do to my truck. Wonder what -300F would do to a car. I know -25 gives them hell.

[fxbill 161]

Some might find this article interesting... I know that I did!

http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/why-we-measure-audio

[Ar9Jim 2192]

 

 

He did note that if it survives it was likely well assembled.

 

This discussion has gotten a fair bit off topic. Hopefully some of the membership will find a way to listen to these amps and offer up reviews of the results of the tube rolling!

The production model is said to be about 2 months out. I'll get a demo unit when they are released and play with some tubes.

[fxbill 161]

When it arrives could you possibly note some of the coupling and bypass cap values and brands used and perhaps any observations about the output transformers that are visibly apparent? I'd certainly appreciate it! I can also offer some various quads of tubes of different values to loan to you for testing if you don't already have them. I do have some original American made Tungsol 6550s from some older Dynaco Mk 3's that I used to have as well as some GE or RCA 6550's and various brands of KT88's ...Tesla and others and possibly a quad of EI KT90s. You're welcome to try any that you might not have on hand. I also have some Cryo Winged "C" KT88s or 6550s...( I'll have to check to see which they are...it's been a while since I've dug through my tube collection). I also have many brands of small tube models...some German and other foreign brands, (Tele's as well as others) as well as lots of American NOS brands. You're welcome to try any that you'd like to.

[Nahash5150 4603]

From just a "listening" standpoint I have never heard any difference between cryo tubes and standards, but perhaps there are differences in longevity or other "measurable" differences. I don't believe that you can always "measure" what you  hear.

 

Why not? What can you perceive as a difference in signal that an instrument can't? Electronics make the signals but electronics can't detect the signals? 

[Nahash5150 4603]

Quote

I don't measure everything that I listen to. My opinions are based on what "I" hear. Others are welcomed to disagree. As once stated the the old film "Roadhouse"..... "opinions vary!"....( Whoops....almost misquoted a film I worked on...)

 

 

So there is no difference between having an opinion based on desire or disdain, or an opinion that is modified by facts and reason?

[fxbill 161]

My opinions are based on my listening experiences...and they are just that....my opinions. They have nothing to do with your "measurements" or your opinions....which are yours. Others can form their own by whatever means they wish to. That's the beauty of an opinion. It is personal, individual and can be based on anything or nothing. That's why it's called an opinion.....

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

 

[loner_t 1968]

Quote

 

Quote

From just a "listening" standpoint I have never heard any difference between cryo tubes and standards, but perhaps there are differences in longevity or other "measurable" differences. I don't believe that you can always "measure" what you  hear.

 

Why not? What can you perceive as a difference in signal that an instrument can't? Electronics make the signals but electronics can't detect the signals? 

 

Unlike humans with emotions, instruments have so far not shown any. The brain does so much to what it hears, that measuring instruments may not be able to. Instruments backed by AI may come close to what a human brain can do or does.  

 

There is an entire Psychoacoustics section on CS. The Tube vs SS debate is also indicative of how perceptions vary. 

 

What Measurements can we hear? Can we measure sound quality? is an interesting topic which coincidentally is current now. 

 

[BillWojo 325]

Hey guys, I popped my head out of the rabbit hole to check and see what your all up to and low and behold, your discussing tubes! It's awesome to see that more of you folks are getting into tube amps.

Kevin (kve777) waved a carrot in front of me a while back and tossed it down a rabbit hole and I've been wandering around down here having fun.

Everything that Kevin posted back on page two is truth. Especially about the better vintage tubes. I have taken decent sounding amps or preamp's and turned them into stellar  performers by installing good vintage tubes. It's really noticeable when changing tubes on the low power SE style amps.

Sure wish I could be there to join in on the tube build at CarverFest this year, sounds like a lot of fun. Looks to be a nice powerful PP amp that can drive a lot of different speakers.  For those that have never experienced the sound of a tube amp, well, I think your going to be in for a nice surprise.

I'm sure I'll get to hear Kevin's when he gets back from the Fest,  maybe I can get him to bring it by to try on my Altec's. Now that would be a treat.

In the meantime, if all goes well, this weekend I should be trading some gear for a set of PPP KT120 monoblocks, 100 watts per amp. Guess I'll finally be able to hear my ribbons on tubes. 

One last thing for you new tube guys building the tube amp. Not trying to scare you but when your powering this up to check it out, make sure you have someone experienced with you. The voltages involved are lethal.  Don't be pounding beers and fingerpokin. They can bite you.

I'll be looking in on this thread.  Looks exciting.

 

BillWojo

 

[Magnaryder 514]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Jim, I am curious how much a difference there is with cryogenic treated tubes vs the non-treated tubes.

 

The guy from Upscale Audio was asked that. They offer that option. His comment was people that order them cryo treated tend to reorder them cry treated. That was about all he said.

 

Never tried them Barry. I doubt if personally a change could be heard, but surely there are others with finer perceptions than mine.

 

Deep freeze is common in metallurgy and is sometimes combined with heat treating operations. It could be conceivable that tube life could increase. Seems like a logical claim, but I haven't seen any test on tube life.

 

At our age, with the DC Restorer circuit, the tubes will outlive us anyway. Lol. We are good to go..

 

 

Please provide scientific information that describes what this process does and how it could benefit vaccum tubes. 

 

 

I cryo brake and machined engine parts on my race bikes. Many parts of my new engine build will be cryo'd after they're machined...then re examined to verify spec. My cryo'd brake rotors last almost 20,000 miles longer in my daily drivers than the same part without the cryo process, suggesting the material becomes less susceptible to wear. They also appear not to rust as quickly.

 

Many tube companies offer the process for their more expensive tube product lines. 

 

ray 

[Nahash5150 4603]

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

Quote

From just a "listening" standpoint I have never heard any difference between cryo tubes and standards, but perhaps there are differences in longevity or other "measurable" differences. I don't believe that you can always "measure" what you  hear.

 

Why not? What can you perceive as a difference in signal that an instrument can't? Electronics make the signals but electronics can't detect the signals? 

 

 

Unlike humans with emotions, instruments have so far not shown any. The brain does so much to what it hears, that measuring instruments may not be able to. Instruments backed by AI may come close to what a human brain can do or does.  

 

There is an entire Psychoacoustics section on CS. The Tube vs SS debate is also indicative of how perceptions vary.

 

 

Not related to my question and the topic at hand. There's a difference between the investigation and study of psychoacoustics as opposed to how components 'sound' better than others, much less the implication that we can't measure 'improvement' or 'deterioration' from one component to another if it happens to fall into one's preference or displeasure. In just about every other area of discussion, an opinion unsupported by evidence is not taken very seriously. Furthermore, if 'sound quality' is purely subjective, then there is no point in communicating what is better or worse to others...they won't hear what you hear anyway.

 

So if you don't know the answer to my initial questions, then leave it be for someone who does.

 

Quote

What Measurements can we hear? Can we measure sound quality? is an interesting topic which coincidentally is current now. 

 

 

Nice try - Jim just posted that. 

[Nahash5150 4603]

Quote

 

Quote

 

Please provide scientific information that describes what this process does and how it could benefit vaccum tubes. 

 

 

I cryo brake and machined engine parts on my race bikes. Many parts of my new engine build will be cryo'd after they're machined...then re examined to verify spec. My cryo'd brake rotors last almost 20,000 miles longer in my daily drivers than the same part without the cryo process, suggesting the material becomes less susceptible to wear. They also appear not to rust as quickly.

 

Many tube companies offer the process for their more expensive tube product lines. 

 

ray 

 

Nice anecdote, but that's not what I asked for.

 

I'm not even a tube guy, per se, yet even I know that tubes don't have any moving parts to 'wear down' so I don't even understand where that is supposed to lead me. Notwithstanding the fact that the anode plate is not bare metal but is coated with an absolutely crucial 'special ingredient' for better electron absorption which may or may not benefit for freezing.

 

And using a for-profit company practice to support any claim that such a process is actually beneficial lends to even more suspicion...don't you think?

[fxbill 161]

 Am I mistaken or did you just state that you don't know how or why a tube wears out?

[loner_t 1968]

An opinion must exist before it can be modified by facts and reason, not the other way round.  

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by zumbini

[Nahash5150 4603]

 Am I mistaken or did you just state that you don't know how or why a tube wears out?

 

You are wildly mistaken. Read my post more carefully because for you to glean that from what I stated is a rather insidious conclusion. 

[Nahash5150 4603]

Quote

Instrumental measurements are not the complete picture. Frequency response graphs of amps still do not convey the sound quality of an amp. A TFM-45 is not the same as a M500t or a M500t MkII where SQ is concerned. Better or worse have subjective ingredients.  In the same environment, a recapped Silver 9t driving a Klipsch sounded less 'musical' then a 10W Tube amp.

 

That's your opinion for sure. But you're stretching really long to make an argument out of this and I don't appreciate at all. I asked a totally fair question - provide measurements. Whether you know it or not, measurements do explain why certain circuits or components help or hinder sound 'quality'.  

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

So there is no difference between having an opinion based on desire or disdain, or an opinion that is modified by facts and reason?

 

An opinion must exist before it can be modified by facts and reason, not the other way round.  

 

 

LT - that make absolutely no sense in comparison to what you're quoting. Read it more carefully. 

[BillWojo 325]

If you can hear a difference but can't measure a difference than your measuring the wrong thing. Simple as that!

 

BillWojo