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Pindrops system with an "Amazing" twist!

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😎  So I decided to play around with things a bit yesterday and settled in to some listening after initial setup.

 

 

 

 

As usual with my fabulous Kindle camera, the beauty of these system pictures is left to the thoughts in your OCCD minds....

The ALSIII's are run by the m1.0t mkll opt 2 (thanks again Hashy) and the CarverFest  Sonorous are on the m500t mkll (thanks to DennisMiller a killer job on a beater amp) hooked to the 2 Polk RM 1000w behind them. The BillD c1 (BMan built for Travis) main 1 to m1.0t and main 2 out to the Sunfire Signature sub xover at 45Hz and then to the 500t.

 

I set the ALSIII's up for a sweet spot just short of the very back of the room and the C.F. speakers setup for SH at my listening chair. I was just playing one setup while the other amp and speakers were off with no intention of running both sets at once. Well of course I did, wouldn't you run 'em both just to see? RobertR has a tri-neural? setup with 3 ALS's I would still love to hear but Robert....and BMan I know you can do this but you all need to check this out.  WOW!!! I think if I move the ALSIII's forward and backward I'm getting time and phase shift? that makes the staging either more forward or backward? Any thoughts anybody?

IMG_20180715_142232_hdr.jpg

Edited by pindrop
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I'm not running my ALS ribbons in parallel with CF speakers, but I have run them in a tri-amp configuration with the ALS woofers and Magnepan 55" ribbon tweeters.  I'm using the DBX Venu360 as a crossover and for time alignment.  Sound is quite good the image is a wider than with the ALS ribbons but a little less detailed/precise in location.

 

Yes, moving the ALS forward should get you closer in time alignment to the CF speakers.  Measure the distance from listening position to the drivers the closer to all being the same distance the better; unless a bit of time delay improves the 'holography'.  I would start with them all at the same distance from listening position and then adjust forward/back to find the best overall sound.

Edited by UncleMeat

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Thanks for your thoughts on this gents because my mind started wandering on what I have here. Don't we have sensitivity issues between the amps themselves along with the differences in sensitivity of the speakers?  The C.F. speakers are forward of the ALS's by about 10" so there is no obstruction to interfere with them. 

 Then there is that question that I've always had and didn't ask. In relation to the pretty strict set-up parameters for SH. I'm pretty sure that was with forward firing cabinets, is there any debate in how much better these C.F. speakers sound with them set further apart compared to distance? I understand what you're saying Hashy but I'm uncertain how to apply it to these speakers...I have just been moving then listening and it keeps getting better and wider, deeper in front of and behind me and more of the same songs that I listen to are ever more enveloping. Kingman is wise because this sure keeps getting better to me.

BTW  the amps are running each set independently. Those woofers were designed in the 80s to run with some of the first sat/sub combo's  so paralleling them with the 8ohm C.F. speakers is a natural and when all 4get backed up by the signature sub....it can play much lower in volume and get that effect of taking over the room.

Edited by pindrop

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1 hour ago, pindrop said:

Don't we have sensitivity issues between the amps themselves along with the differences in sensitivity of the speakers?

 

The M1.0t if it's non-inverting has about 30dB gain.  The M500t has approx. 26 dB gain.  The CF speakers are a bit more efficient than the AL-III's mainly because the woofer on the AL-III is reduced efficiency.  I would say how you've got it set up with the M500t driving the CF speakers, everything is probably pretty close to balanced in output level.

Edited by UncleMeat

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So now I have ask regarding the efficiency of both sets of speakers, if they were both say 86db@ 1w/m is there some other measurement in relation to the wall of sound coming from the III's opposed the smaller C.F. ?

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I don't quite understand the question, are you asking why the CF speakers are not as loud as the AL-III's when driven with the same volume setting?

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Yea, I mean 1m in front of either speaker you measured 86db SPL on example right? But on the C.F. speakers you have the one 5" ribbon and on the III's you have eight. ..I'm lost here trying to understand loudness as you say, between the two with the same rating and volume level. I think there will not be a 2db drop in volume between them if I moved the C.F.speakers a foot behind the III's. In other words that movement in moving them forward or backwards wouldn't be too perceptible. What about time and phase? 

Hey you guys said there weren't any dumb questions can I prove us wrong? lol

Edited by pindrop

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OK, so the reason the little ribbon creates more sound per-watt is because the big ribbon on the AL-III has been physically reduced in volume via a resistor within the crossover.  The woofer of the AL-III is only 86dB/W efficient so the ribbon must be matched in output by cutting it's efficiency so it will pair with the woofer at all volume levels.  The CRM-2 as a similar comparison to the CF speaker is 90dB/W efficient, but the ribbon probably does not require as much attenuation to mate with the side firing drivers (the raw ribbon driver is 94dB/W efficient).

 

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Further thoughts:  THIS DON'T WORK!!😂.....but it does sound outrageously good on PF DSOTM in the dark while under the influence😎,

The tip off to my thoughts about how wonderful and "accurate" the sound was? I was listening to a group up on stage playing, from my 10th row seat, and was marveling at how wide it was with people and instruments spread out across it. The lead singer was belting it out center stage and all of a sudden I hear this guy 1 row forward and 6 to 8 seats to my right start harmonizing with him loud and clear and I thought he was pretty good at it. It was when he started playing that fiddle.....Balderdash!!! (got to use my favorite word)

 

In listening critically you get more of a wall of sound like Greg said(because of the cancellation of the SH's intended effect) but you sit in the center line of a half circle, and with some recordings with more echo/reverb, it envelopes you more past 180°. It's pretty cool but not what we chase in sound. The euphoria has passed lol.

 

@UncleMeat,  Thanks for your explanation on efficiency between all components and balancing. I'm proud to say I've learned quite a few things from this site which is what helped me pose the question about the differences in sensitivity of the speakers and then the differences in sensitivity of the amps. Your numbers helped in getting a better understanding of balance between them all along with how it's achieved with the resistors in the speakers.

 

The other question was what measurement or word is expressed when comparing the 2 very different, in size and amount of drivers, amount of, volume of, I'm stuck here....if you stand the brand new ALS at 7' tall next to the C.F. speakers on their 4' stands and both are rated at, in example, 88db 1w/m, the ALS's are putting more sound out. What is that called or how is that difference expressed?

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When I run 2 sets of speakers at once I get a wall of sound but SH is never right no matter what I do but for get togethers in the summer it's fine, most of the time I just run 2 speakers to get a nice Sh system without a lot of work. I am actually sick of messing with time delay and gains and crossover freqs. I have to many buttons to mess with and I can't stop playing with them thinking I am missing out someplace so this week I am going to put the passives back in on one pair of speakers (which should be fun as I have never seen a crossover that looks like the one I have in my MK-III  plats)

Edited by cuda

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2 hours ago, pindrop said:

The other question was what measurement or word is expressed when comparing the 2 very different, in size and amount of drivers, amount of, volume of, I'm stuck here....if you stand the brand new ALS at 7' tall next to the C.F. speakers on their 4' stands and both are rated at, in example, 88db 1w/m, the ALS's are putting more sound out. What is that called or how is that difference expressed?

 

This might be because the AL-III and ALS ribbons are a line source.  If they are rated 86dB/w @ 1m then a small sensor at 1m distance is measuring 86dB.  That's OK if the source is a small ribbon element, but with a 4' tall ribbon element a dB meter may only be sensing a portion of the entire signal/energy coming from the driver.  In a large room the point source of sound is going to become diffuse/reduced in energy more rapidly than the tall ribbon.  This is a best guess at answering your question, there may be a more correct answer coming if I'm wrong about this.

Edited by UncleMeat

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@pindrop I have tried three pairs of speakers from the same source and two preamps (BillD C11, C1 and Tape loop) and each pair being driven by separate amp (3 x M500t MKIIs or pair of TFM42s and M500t MkII). The 'wall' of sound is loud, but incoherent and imaging is pretty awful. SH makes it far worse. I did try to set the 'loudness' to the same level on individual pairs, but it is still not ideal for regular listening. Just my 2c.

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See above LT lol. "IT DON'T WORK" doesn't in other parts of the country . But when you're talking PF in the dark late at night under the right circumstances, it's freaking glorious!!! Just not true ...😂

2 hours ago, UncleMeat said:

 

This might be because the AL-III and ALS ribbons are a line source.  If they are rated 86dB/w @ 1m then a small sensor at 1m distance is measuring 86dB.  That's OK if the source is a small ribbon element, but with a 4' tall ribbon element a dB meter may only be sensing a portion of the entire signal/energy coming from the driver.  In a large room the point source of sound is going to become diffuse/reduced in energy more rapidly than the tall ribbon.  This is a best guess at answering your question, there may be a more correct answer coming if I'm wrong about this.

So now I'm getting a mental image of the sound coming from the ALIII's in a "bubble" form with it not being uniform and round but rather pushed out further in one area relative to the height that instrument or voice is in it's projection. Like the bass drum would make the bubble project lower down than voice at 5' and acoustic guitar at 31/2'. If that is correct then does the 5" ribbon in the C. F. speakers do the same but from a smaller bubble? 

Edited by pindrop
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New update: At B-Man's behest K read the set up instructions for the ALIII's and decided to reverse the two sets of speakers.

 

The glory is gone and the image really stinks now so I'll just run one set at a time. The ALIII's are 4' 2" apart and my ears are at 8 '4" to start and am working from there for them to shine using SH. They look way too close aesthetically but sound way better due to the sound now stretching laterally outside the walls. I thought they were supposed to be out wide but that would be room dependent with the distance to seating. The sound now doesn't seem to emanate from them as a source with eyes open or closed. That's a good thing.....yessss indeed.

 

 

 

IMG_20180717_150135_hdr.jpg

Edited by pindrop
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Yes, a wave front of sound could be visualized as a 'bubble' that is expanding in radius from the speaker element.  By the time the bubble is 4' tall from the CF speaker it's probably at 8-10' away, and this is where the AL-III ribbon 'starts'.  That's just a guesstimate.

 

SH is dependent on speaker 'crosstalk'.  If the speakers are too wide in location the crosstalk will actually be too low for SH to work.  There is a sweet spot/ratio of width to distance from listening position;  I'm sure you will find it.

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7 hours ago, pindrop said:

The other question was what measurement or word is expressed when comparing the 2 very different, in size and amount of drivers, amount of, volume of, I'm stuck here....if you stand the brand new ALS at 7' tall next to the C.F. speakers on their 4' stands and both are rated at, in example, 88db 1w/m, the ALS's are putting more sound out. What is that called or how is that difference expressed?

 

Okay here goes some conventions...

 

Speakers are rated at sensitivity per 1m @ 1watt power output in SPL dB.

Amps are rated at gain in dB (there is input sensitivity but that is typically only used to express the input voltage that will output the amp's Full Scale power).

Sound is measured in SPL (Sound Pressure Level) in dB.

 

It's okay to say a speaker is 'efficient' when talking about a speaker's mechanical power with relation to the input voltage. However, when you mention the SPL level as it pertains to 1 watt at 1 meter, then you mean sensitivity. This is a strict convention because speakers are non-linear with respect to the many variables that can effect its overall performance.

 

Remember that SPL is not volume like you might understand it...

 

"Subjectively perceived loudness (volume),
objectively measured sound pressure (voltage), and theoretically calculated sound intensity (acoustic power)"

 

An SPL meter measures the air pressure delta over time (sound wave) so it is point specific (the SPL changes if moved in 3 dimensions from the source). So consider the distance of the CF speakers from the ceiling, and the top of the ALIII's from the ceiling, and then of course their distance to other reflective areas. Which is more likely to cause louder reflections that could be perceived as 'louder' sound?

 

The idea of the long ribbon is not to be louder...it is there to confuse your perception of where the sound if coming from. Bob basically discovered that when a ribbon becomes a certain length, it's harder and harder for your brain to determine the point source. For example, our ears are tuned to locate where sounds come from. Think about it. That's primary what we use them for. Where did you hear a something? It's a vital perception that our survival depends on, so to speak. This is why we experience discomfort if we can't locate where a sound is coming from. It can cause an uneasy feeling. We will even make up location if we have to, just like we change our perception of what we see based on the same sort of bias. Therefore, the music seems BIG because your brain's locator says 'that's coming from a lot of places...' because it can't find one or two.

 

So, some location 'smearing' is okay, but not too much.

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From that last picture I would think that a 4-6 foot width would be perfect I know it seems narrow but those ribbons are straight up and down not tilted so it works well. Besides what the manual says for the placement on the AL-III's I always thought they where just a tad boomy which I figured that is just the way it is with a down firing woofer. Well I have a friend with some AL-III's and a large music room and he had said the same thing then I read a email from a Carver Tech that was answering the same question about boomyness  and he said " that carver research had found that if the AL-III is moved 5 feet from the backwall and a min. of 4 feet from a sidewall there is no boomy bass" And it is true we tried it but you need a pretty good size room to place them like that.

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6 hours ago, pindrop said:

New update: At B-Man's behest K read the set up instructions for the ALIII's and decided to reverse the two sets of speakers.

 

The glory is gone and the image really stinks now so I'll just run one set at a time. The ALIII's are 4' 2" apart and my ears are at 8 '4" to start and am working from there for them to shine using SH. They look way too close aesthetically but sound way better due to the sound now stretching laterally outside the walls. I thought they were supposed to be out wide but that would be room dependent with the distance to seating. The sound now doesn't seem to emanate from them as a source with eyes open or closed. That's a good thing.....yessss indeed.

 

 

 

IMG_20180717_150135_hdr.jpg

 

Thanks for sharing. It's important to remember something about Sonic Holography and speaker placement - sounds from the speakers travel at a known speed (varies slightly with humidity, pressure and temperature) so the physical placement of your ears and the speakers is of paramount importance if you are to realize the benefits of Sonic Holography.

 

Remember one thing - your ears cannot see the listening environment.

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Love this site....Acoustic power is what term I was searching for with @UncleMeat trying hard to figure out what I was looking for. lol  

Is that a huge difference between the two sets of speakers as I'm thinking it is?

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