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Clearing the air / Russ Kall merchandise.

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Those that have been here for a while know that this is a touchy subject.  This thread is NOT, I repeat NOT intended to bash Kall as an individual, and said personal bashing WILL NOT be tolerated.  What this thread IS intended to do, is shed some light on why there is open animosity and suspicion surrounding Kall and his merchandise by some here.

 

here are some of the FACTS surrounding Kall, and his history with regard to this community.

 

FACT - Russ began performing mkII modifications several years ago.  He deviated from Rich’s design, while still marketing his modifications as mkII (he later marketed his mods as mk2). When confronted by Rich on this, Kall openly attacked Rich, going so far as to create a web site bashing Rich.

 

FACT - Kall used counterfeit output transistors in several of his modifications. These devices failed in many Kall modded amps.  While counterfeit parts are a danger to any of us doing mods, at the end of the day it is incumbent upon the technician to ensure that he/she is sourcing genuine parts.  If failures occur from the use of counterfeit parts, it is the responsibility of the tech to correct the situation.  Kall failed to do this.

 

FACT - several of Kall’s modifications failed, due to either the deviation from Rich’s design, or to counterfeit parts.  In many of these cases, Kall refused to stand behind his work.  Further, the techs HERE, picked up his slack and corrected his work - often at no charge to the customer.  As far as I know, the tech team here has agreed to fix EVERY failed Kall mod, in large part to preserve the legacy of the mkII project. 

 

FACT - Kall has pirated several circuit board designs from the likes of Les (circuits and Concepts) and our own Dennis Miller.  He has outright copied the designs that these individuals took the time to pioneer, test and produce, without permission, all to make a quick buck.  Granted, these designs are not trademarked, but it does speak to character. 

 

Bringing this full circle to TODAY, we come to the C1 faceplates (and 1.0t faceplates)  being offered by Kall. While I am sure these are exactly as advertised, and I am sure they will function as intended.  At least now you know the history, and there may be some understanding as to why anything attached to Kall is viewed with  caution by many here.  Nothing contained in this post is PERSONAL or BIASED - just a FACTUAL accounting....

 

 

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Well, some of that is revisionist history. There was a ton of private issues between Russ and Rich and many, many e-mails back and forth before there was ever any accusation of "deviation from the design".  so, the public attacks by Rich And Russ toward each other came from a lot of deep-rooted issues and conflicts that those two encountered. 

 

The issue with the counterfeit transistors, is spot-on. Undoubtedly it was a lack of adequate load testing that allowed these parts to sneak through. however, by the time these amplifiers started failing Russ was already on his way to work in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor. At the time of these failures, he wasn't refusing service, he was out of the country. 

 

I certainly understand a bit of animosity due to the extra workload that techs had to undertake to correct these issues. I could also understand about any potential negativaty that could be attached to them MKII design. 

 

now, I'm no Tech, but I have spoken to several that I've had people work on some of these units with the failed transistors. But I do not believe I have heard anyone having failure due to some design difference between his application and riches design? If this has been a common occurrence, please feel free to correct me on that.

Edited by trav0810
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I don't see anyone saying that the Black C-1 faceplate, C-1 anthracite replacement, MK-II, or  Black MK-II faceplates he is selling on eBay are copies of theirs.  He went out and got them MFR'd on his own, and that is good for Carver owners who want an update, replacement, or MK-II labeled faceplate; and that is the only reason I give any support to these items (for Carver OWNERS).

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9 minutes ago, trav0810 said:

now, I'm no Tech, but I have spoken to several that I've had people work on some of these units with the failed transistors. But I do not believe I have heard anyone having failure due to some design difference between his application and riches design? If this has been a common occurrence, please feel free to correct me on that.

 

All I will say in response to this is that Russ did his mods on his own and should provide support for his work. He also did not test them correctly before shipping them out, and I can tell you, just because they power up doesn't mean they couldn't potentially have other problems the template mkII design doesn't address (like failing protection circuits, out of spec resistors, etc) that cause distortion problems and other anomalies. They are not supported by me or any other tech here, however, because he used Rich's design and pseudo-mark - his clients come to us for help.

 

You guys don't really see it here, but my emails are full of questions about 'the guys on ebay' when they are asking for information about my services from the carvermk2.com website. This is a problem too. Russ doesn't even want to be associated with me or this site, yet he continues to hedge our popularity and reputation for his own benefit (the latest new faceplates with the 'mk2' label being the most obvious). How does this even approach 'innocent' or 'unintentional' intent? At least the guy who copied the M500t mkII design calls his mod the M500t 'gold' mod. Still not very polite, but at least his doesn't try to associate his work with us and cause a shitload of confusion.

 

I and others have spent a lot of time fixing his work. Hours and hours. He's never acknowledged any of us for it. That's also a just a fact. Nothing personal.

 

I could go through his parts and methods but that won't 'solve' anything and it doesn't change the fact that we serenely fix his stuff all the time. They do not meet the mkII spec and I don't consider them to be an mkII. It's a Kall amp, and that's become the norm. 

 

It's all his own doing and if people want to do business with him, that's their business. As long as Russ takes responsibility for his business transactions then it's all good. And I for one would appreciate it if he didn't associate his products with us while at the same time refusing to associate himself with us.

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I'm confused. I thought the MK-II mod was considered open source.  Maybe not.

 

I also thought he was given a lifetime ban from this forum, kinda hard to 'associate himself' with the forum members if he's banned from being here.

 

Afghanistan is a long way from being able to fix someone's amp.  Civilian contractor or military, I'd rather not go to that shithole to work, but he did on behalf of US.

 

JMO

Edited by UncleMeat
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1 hour ago, UncleMeat said:

I'm confused. I thought the MK-II mod was considered open source.  Maybe not.

Definitely not as "open source" applies to software only. Here's an excerpt from the MKII website: 

All design modifications are freely available, for non commercial use, and licensed under the TAPR open hardware license (www.tapr.org/OHL)

 

1 hour ago, UncleMeat said:

I also thought he was given a lifetime ban from this forum, kinda hard to 'associate himself' with the forum members if he's banned from being here.

Re-read Greg's post. The answer should be obvious.

 

1 hour ago, UncleMeat said:

Afghanistan is a long way from being able to fix someone's amp.  Civilian contractor or military, I'd rather not go to that shithole to work, but he did on behalf of US.

He sold the amps with Rich's lifetime warranty. (As long as I'm alive I will repair any Mk II sold for cost of parts plus shipping.) He did so for several years before he chose to go to Afghanistan to make 4 times the stateside rate. I don't blame him for following the money, but leaving the country doesn't absolve him of his responsibility (e.g. to take care of his customers when his amps fail). If he hadn't burned all his bridges he might have been able to make arrangements with Rich and Greg and the MKII Team to cover for him.

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I don't know what you are referring to about "read Greg's response".; What Russ (UM) said is exactly true. Russ was banned from the site, and his IP blocked. Nothing that Greg said in this statement changes that fact.

 

And no, being out of the country doesn't absolve him of responsibility, but it did remove his ability. 

Edited by trav0810

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53 minutes ago, trav0810 said:

I don't know what you are referring to about "read Greg's response".; What Russ (UM) said is exactly true. Russ was banned from the site, and his IP blocked. Nothing that Greg said in this statement changes that fact.

 

And no, being out of the country doesn't absolve him of responsibility, but it did remove his ability. 

 

I have taken Kall amps in for repair before and after his trip.

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I had two Mk2 M-1.0t Opt2 amps done by Kall. I was naive about the difference. I had a transistor let go and the amp sent 70vdc to my speaker. The protection circuit repeatedly reset  and, of course, sent another shock to my speaker before I could shut it down. I got rid of both amps.

Edited by Dav-Em

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12 minutes ago, Dav-Em said:

As for the 'open' TARP license you really can't add a caveat that is outside the terms of the TARP; unless you have people sign-off on special terms before you make it available to them. It's either open or not. My wife is a doctor/lawyer and I'm in law school to help fill my retirement time. blah, blah, blah...... (of course another lawyer may disagree - as we all keep practicing law until we, some day, get it right)

 

It's not a legal issue as much as it is decorum. The mkII is RichP's design and he openly offered it for people to DIY, not to capitalize on. That caveat expresses his intent for making the information available under TARP. All TARP does is protect people who perform the mkII from legal action if they copy the design and/or distribute it. No one has ever talked about taking legal action against anyone in this respect. RichP has since expressed some regret for offering it as freely and openly as he did. But really, underneath all this is intellectual property rights. However, RichP, as well as myself and many long standing members here, wish to perpetuate a friendly, generous and helpful community rather than some legalistic business model. RichP went above and beyond with his generosity. For years RichP educated the community about Carver amps and has contributed substantially to our understanding of how this stuff works. Some of the folks from CarverAudio.com also contribute and give in the very same spirit. It's our tradition, so to speak. And so the point of all this is to remind people what, where and how all this came to be.

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I have 2 of the M1.0t mk2’s from Russ. One did fail (transistor) and smoked. Thanks to Dennis Miller he repaired it and corrected the potential problems. I am very grateful and can see the difference in workmanship and parts. The 2nd mk2 so far is still going. I know it’s a ticking time bomb but I will continue to push it until it fails.

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4 hours ago, Nahash5150 said:

 

It's not a legal issue as much as it is decorum. The mkII is RichP's design and he openly offered it for people to DIY, not to capitalize on. That caveat expresses his intent for making the information available under TARP. All TARP does is protect people who perform the mkII from legal action if they copy the design and/or distribute it. No one has ever talked about taking legal action against anyone in this respect. RichP has since expressed some regret for offering it as freely and openly as he did. But really, underneath all this is intellectual property rights. However, RichP, as well as myself and many long standing members here, wish to perpetuate a friendly, generous and helpful community rather than some legalistic business model. RichP went above and beyond with his generosity. For years RichP educated the community about Carver amps and has contributed substantially to our understanding of how this stuff works. Some of the folks from CarverAudio.com also contribute and give in the very same spirit. It's our tradition, so to speak. And so the point of all this is to remind people what, where and how all this came to be.

 

Understood.

 

The ONLY reason I posted the 2nd paragraph was to do with a post several up the chain from mine. I wasn't a member of the site at the time but do remember the issue. IIRC, the TARP has a provisio dealing with commercial sales.

 

I will delete my paragraph dealing with the issue in keeping with the tradition of the site that you have pointed out. Sorry. Please feel free to delete this as well so we do not have any negative legalize language.

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1 minute ago, Dav-Em said:

 

Understood.

 

The ONLY reason I posted the 2nd paragraph was to do with a post several up the chain from mine. I wasn't a member of the site at the time but do remember the issue. IIRC, the TARP has a provisio dealing with commercial sales.

 

I will delete my paragraph dealing with the issue in keeping with the tradition of the site that you have pointed out. Sorry. Please feel free to delete this as well so we do not have any negative legalize language.

 

The discussion has been informative, so there's no reason to remove anything sir.

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If the MKII design is not under patent if patentable (who knows) and the logo isn't trade marked, and its open public info. then how can anyone feel liable for the work of someone else?

 

Any Cleatus (sorry Cleatus) with a roll of acid core solder and a propane torch may think he can do it. Hell, a guy wanted to launch himself it a rocket made of oil drums last month to prove the earth flat.. To feel like you have an ax to grind will Kall or anybody else, that may screw up a MKII is one hell of a beast of burden to carry imho..

 

When you do MKIIs the parts alone eat much of the income. And then to be servicing someone else work and feeling liable, when everyone has access to the info.. I can understand the bitterness.

 

Consider that you have no control of the info. and no way to control who uses it and what the end result will be. This also means you have no liability for the results of others..

 

I don't know Mr Kall, but most people are capable of learning from mistakes.. You can take responsibility for the MKII mod as if it is your "product" if you think it is wise, but OMG why would you? If you just enjoy the work and you are independently wealthy than OK.. Do you really need to carry the weight of anyone else mistakes? The effort is admirable.

 

To say that Russ modified Riches design.. Modified the modification? Again where's the claim to rights or liability ?  The original design was Bobs and everyone involve is hacking up his design for their own purpose and product in actuality. MKII and the marketing as a product while open source  and feeling liability for the work of others ..Wow, that seems like whole bunch of weight to carry.. If patents and/or trademarks are not an option or worth persuading. Then it may be best to relax and just be responsible for your work or those in your chosen group..

 

 

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15 hours ago, Maddmaster said:

I have 2 of the M1.0t mk2’s from Russ. One did fail (transistor) and smoked. Thanks to Dennis Miller he repaired it and corrected the potential problems. I am very grateful and can see the difference in workmanship and parts. The 2nd mk2 so far is still going. I know it’s a ticking time bomb but I will continue to push it until it fails.

It will only be an issue if that amp actually had one of the counterfeit transistors in it. Were they done at the same time?

Well said, Jim. Can you imagine where this site would be if Bob had thrown a fit and told Rich that he could not modify his original design?

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32 minutes ago, trav0810 said:

Can you imagine where this site would be if Bob had thrown a fit and told Rich that he could not modify his original design?

 

When shown the M-1.0t MkII, Bob was only interested in the details of the mod - what was done, how much power was gained, how reliable it had proved to be, etc.  He had nothing negative to say about it, and not the slightest thought of infringement.  And Bob is a guy who has suffered a lot of infringement, and sued a few people about it.

RR

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2 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

If the MKII design is not under patent if patentable (who knows) and the logo isn't trade marked, and its open public info. then how can anyone feel liable for the work of someone else?

 

Any Cleatus (sorry Cleatus) with a roll of acid core solder and a propane torch may think he can do it. Hell, a guy wanted to launch himself it a rocket made of oil drums last month to prove the earth flat.. To feel like you have an ax to grind will Kall or anybody else, that may screw up a MKII is one hell of a beast of burden to carry imho..

 

When you do MKIIs the parts alone eat much of the income. And then to be servicing someone else work and feeling liable, when everyone has access to the info.. I can understand the bitterness.

 

Consider that you have no control of the info. and no way to control who uses it and what the end result will be. This also means you have no liability for the results of others..

 

I don't know Mr Kall, but most people are capable of learning from mistakes.. You can take responsibility for the MKII mod as if it is your "product" if you think it is wise, but OMG why would you? If you just enjoy the work and you are independently wealthy than OK.. Do you really need to carry the weight of anyone else mistakes? The effort is admirable.

 

To say that Russ modified Riches design.. Modified the modification? Again where's the claim to rights or liability ?  The original design was Bobs and everyone involve is hacking up his design for their own purpose and product in actuality. MKII and the marketing as a product while open source  and feeling liability for the work of others ..Wow, that seems like whole bunch of weight to carry.. If patents and/or trademarks are not an option or worth persuading. Then it may be best to relax and just be responsible for your work or those in your chosen group..

 

 

 

I get what you are saying, Jim.  Let me be clear - there is no expressed or implied warranty (that I know of) by any of the techs on this site, covering any of Kall’s work. The reason many of us choose to to these repairs is to protect the legacy of Rich’s design from the myriad of “haters” out there that look upon any failed mkII (regardless of who did the mod) with glee so they can point and say “see! See! I told you it was a (insert derogatory adjective here) modification!”  We do it because we care - both about the mkII project as a whole, and more importantly, because we care about the people that were left hanging when their amps failed.  Many of these people (myself included) found their way to this site because of a failed Kall amp.  When I contacted Rich about mine, he was gracious enough to show me what needed correcting, and how to go about it. That was over 5 years ago, and I’ve been here ever since. IMHO, it’s things like this that make this site so much different than most on the internet - genuine caring for people. 

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42 minutes ago, Daddyjt said:

 

I get what you are saying, Jim.  Let me be clear - there is no expressed or implied warranty (that I know of) by any of the techs on this site, covering any of Kall’s work. The reason many of us choose to to these repairs is to protect the legacy of Rich’s design from the myriad of “haters” out there that look upon any failed mkII (regardless of who did the mod) with glee so they can point and say “see! See! I told you it was a (insert derogatory adjective here) modification!”  We do it because we care - both about the mkII project as a whole, and more importantly, because we care about the people that were left hanging when their amps failed.  Many of these people (myself included) found their way to this site because of a failed Kall amp.  When I contacted Rich about mine, he was gracious enough to show me what needed correcting, and how to go about it. That was over 5 years ago, and I’ve been here ever since. IMHO, it’s things like this that make this site so much different than most on the internet - genuine caring for people. 

Those are very selfless and commendable choices.~^

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@trav0810. No both weren’t done the same time. Maybe that’s why the 2nd one is still going strong. I have not abused them but I don’t baby them either. I’ve pushed them to the limits at times. That’s when the one Dennis took care of for me gave up the smoke. It’s been perfect though since Dennis put his magic in it. I really thought the 2nd one would’ve given up by now though. Especially with the way the main board is curved where the transistor leads should have been lengthened.

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2 hours ago, RobertR said:

 

When shown the M-1.0t MkII, Bob was only interested in the details of the mod - what was done, how much power was gained, how reliable it had proved to be, etc.  He had nothing negative to say about it, and not the slightest thought of infringement.  And Bob is a guy who has suffered a lot of infringement, and sued a few people about it.

RR

Exactly.. If the man himself doesn't have any heart ache, how can anyone else. If your a guy with a MKII mod or a guy with a black face plate he won't care, more than asking you about what you did and how it was done. Those patents are long expired anyway, but the point is Bob isn't offended by people modding his stuff. If meeting RichP or RussK he would certainly be supportive of both (even if Russ had issues with a mod) and not defensive in the least. After all, they all have his name on them.

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4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

If the MKII design is not under patent if patentable (who knows) and the logo isn't trade marked, and its open public info. then how can anyone feel liable for the work of someone else?

 

Unfortunately, this is a mischaracterization of what I have already stated. There are no legal issues whatsoever. RK hasn't used the 'mkII' trademark for years, instead he uses 'mk2' to hedge the reputation and the design. It's more than obvious that he is capitalizing on it on his own. Nobody has expressed liability at all. All I stated, as a matter decorum, one should cover their own work. We took on the work because that's who we are. People have come to us for help so we took care of them. It's just a fact.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

Any Cleatus (sorry Cleatus) with a roll of acid core solder and a propane torch may think he can do it. Hell, a guy wanted to launch himself it a rocket made of oil drums last month to prove the earth flat.. To feel like you have an ax to grind will Kall or anybody else, that may screw up a MKII is one hell of a beast of burden to carry imho..

 

No ax grinding here - just information. RK is responsible for his own actions and if he chose not to respond to his customers who needed help that was his choice. I have lots of evidence of this pattern of his. In addition, I don't support DIY mkII projects - I treat them like any other repair that may come my way. Sometimes I make exceptions to help, especially if they are a contributing member.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

When you do MKIIs the parts alone eat much of the income. And then to be servicing someone else work and feeling liable, when everyone has access to the info.. I can understand the bitterness.

 

Not sure what the point of this is. We're just telling it like it is man. The above is just an assumption on your part. I don't feel 'liable' for his work at all. People send me their broken amps and I fix them at my standard fee.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

I don't know Mr Kall, but most people are capable of learning from mistakes.. You can take responsibility for the MKII mod as if it is your "product" if you think it is wise, but OMG why would you? If you just enjoy the work and you are independently wealthy than OK.. Do you really need to carry the weight of anyone else mistakes? The effort is admirable.

 

You seem to know him better than most: https://carverstereoforum.com/forums/topic/aftermarket-faceplate-info-here/

I'm sure he does learn from his mistakes. I've never heard him apologize or even offer to fix the amps he loaded with bad parts though. Look, this is all about his own actions. It's not about us. We are simply telling the story that some of us have been personally affected by in some manner by this guy. He's never tried to make amends, yet I have on more than one occasion extended an olive branch to him. He's not interested in healing anything.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

To say that Russ modified Riches design.. Modified the modification? Again where's the claim to rights or liability ?

 

Yes he modified the modification, and so has Dennis, and Wayne and I. We've all made changes since its inception. However, all of the above sans one, fully supports each other's work. No claims have been made. We are simply differentiating what we do and who we are from what he does.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

The original design was Bobs and everyone involve is hacking up his design for their own purpose and product in actuality.

 

Whoa whoa whoa...what the hell? We are restoring these products, not hacking them up. The mkII releases the full potential of the amps by installing better, cleaner and more durable modern parts that are comparable in operation with the original. The only real deviation from factory intent is increasing the rail voltages for higher power. Everything else we do, is in some way an emulation of what already exists in other Carver products.

 

'Hacking up'...that's just wrong.

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

MKII and the marketing as a product while open source  and feeling liability for the work of others ..Wow, that seems like whole bunch of weight to carry.. If patents and/or trademarks are not an option or worth persuading. Then it may be best to relax and just be responsible for your work or those in your chosen group..

 

The first part is, frankly, none of your business. How I conduct myself with the project is my own path, that is for sure, and that path is excellence. If this causes me to differentiate what I do versus another who performs the work under the appearance of the project, then I certainly will. RK himself differentiated his work from Rich's as being superior. I've never made such a claim - only that I don't consider his work to be official mkII, so it doesn't fall under the warranty that I provide (my site has a disclaimer for this). So, check some facts please.

 

I have never insisted anyone take responsibility for another's work. We all do it voluntarily. In fact, @wrf who used to be partners with me on the mkII project has since left, but has still offered to cover his own work, as well as mine, if I ever asked. All of us on the Repair Team stand behind one another, and I feel honored to be counted among them.

 

3 hours ago, trav0810 said:

Well said, Jim. Can you imagine where this site would be if Bob had thrown a fit and told Rich that he could not modify his original design?

 

Two things here - TARP allows it, whether Bob likes or not. This is also a very dead horse. Bob has never criticized the project, even when asked abut it at CF 2009 where he revealed that the amps were certainly capable of more but were toned back in production due to cost efficiency. His only concern was stressing the mag coil, which, 10 years later, is obviously not an issue.

 

Wow - what a great opportunity you guys a making for us to explain what the project really is!

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Well well... It's been 3-4 months since I've logged on to the site, and the first post I open is the exact thing that drove me away.   Can anyone say "cronies"  :-)  


Jim, I commend you for , stating, and acknowledging the unspeakable.  

 "To say that Russ modified Riches design.. Modified the modification? Again where's the claim to rights or liability ?  The original design was Bobs and everyone involve is hacking up his design for their own purpose and product in actuality...".

 

Be careful Jim, my observation is that you're either in or out, determined by a small group.

 

At the risk of wasting my (and the cronies) time, I am perplexed that anyone would even bring up Mr. Kall.  From the perspective of a newcomer just wanting to get up to speed on the forum and members.  I made the mistake of going back and reading the interchanges from this period.  It really was a mistake on my part, as it really change my perception and outlook, bringing in the focus what I've referenced as the "core cronies".

 

No disrespect intended, it's just my perception when stepping back and observing.  It's worth looking at with open eyes and learning from our mistakes, instead of bashing me for making the statement. My recommendation, purged it from the site and avoid revisiting it as is being done today. 

 

With all that said, I would like to thank the members that reached out and helped me tackle what was the unknown for me, electronics.  Providing you keep the blinders intact and you ignore the site politics, the help really gives a sense of camaraderie. 

 

 If and/or when I revisit, hopefully I will drop into a positive post. 

 

I wish everyone, all the best.

Will

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56 minutes ago, wdc said:

Well well... It's been 3-4 months since I've logged on to the site, and the first post I open is the exact thing that drove me away.   Can anyone say "cronies" ?  


Jim, I commend you for , stating, and acknowledging the unspeakable.  

 "To say that Russ modified Riches design.. Modified the modification? Again where's the claim to rights or liability ?  The original design was Bobs and everyone involve is hacking up his design for their own purpose and product in actuality...".

 

Be careful Jim, my observation is that you're either in or out, determined by a small group.

 

At the risk of wasting my (and the cronies) time, I am perplexed that anyone would even bring up Mr. Kall.  From the perspective of a newcomer just wanting to get up to speed on the forum and members.  I made the mistake of going back and reading the interchanges from this period.  It really was a mistake on my part, as it really change my perception and outlook, bringing in the focus what I've referenced as the "core cronies".

 

No disrespect intended, it's just my perception when stepping back and observing.  It's worth looking at with open eyes and learning from our mistakes, instead of bashing me for making the statement. My recommendation, purged it from the site and avoid revisiting it as is being done today. 

 

With all that said, I would like to thank the members that reached out and helped me tackle what was the unknown for me, electronics.  Providing you keep the blinders intact and you ignore the site politics, the help really gives a sense of camaraderie. 

 

 If and/or when I revisit, hopefully I will drop into a positive post. 

 

I wish everyone, all the best.

Will

 

Sorry for a poor choice of words. The word hack was not proper. It was meant as modification of another design. I'm truly sorry if that was perceived as having anything to do with quality.

 

No Greg. I do not know RussK although I offered him a place to show his faceplates for sale.

I also show the link to your site here at CS.

Also a link to CA site.

Also a link to Bobs site. 

 

The MKII and your loyalty to Rich is commendable. The topics like this one and the past fighting between CS,CA, now again RussK, is behavior that is not reflective of the man who's name you display.. When stoping by and reading post like this, It just bothers me.. Understood this is the MKII site and thats great, but consider the guy who's name you display, just a little.

Edited by Ar9Jim

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