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1 hour ago, AndrewJohn said:

Speaking of coughing and touching...

 

Does anyone else see the irony of being instructed to sneeze and cough into our elbow sleeves, then replace hand shake greetings with elbow-bumps making contact with another human using that very same elbow/sleeve?

 

just sayin'

 

Ha... and how do you maintain the proper 6 foot social distancing if you are bumping elbows?

Steve

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2 minutes ago, RichP714 said:

An urgent dispatch from the COVID-19 front lines

We are physicians. We are experts at triaging and prioritizing action. Our decisions mean the difference between life and death. We regularly balance competing interests in the setting of constrained resources. We fight hard for our patients....

So maybe those monthly trips to the doctors office that were required just to get a prescription for pain meds (that have been in use for years) should be replaced with an automatic re-issue of the prescription and no federal investigation into the doctors' action.  

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What Should The Government Spend To Save A Life?

excerpt:  Economists might not be able to say how much an individual person’s existence is worth, but they have figured out a way to calculate how much the average person is willing to pay to reduce the risk of death — which allows them to put a price tag on the collective value of saving one life. That figure, which currently hovers somewhere around $9 or $10 million, is known as the “value of statistical life,” and it’s the basis for all kinds of high-stakes decisions that involve tradeoffs between public safety and economic cost — from food and automobile regulations to our responses to climate change.

 

These numbers show why spending trillions of dollars to combat a threat like the coronavirus pandemic can be a good investment, despite the high cost. “Let’s say one of our worst-case scenarios comes to pass, and 2 million people die,” said James Hammitt, an economist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. “Multiply that by $9 million or $10 million and we’re talking about up to $20 trillion as the value of preventing those deaths. That suggests it’s worth expending a fair amount of our resources to mitigate this.”

 

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It does not help that people now are starting to ask me when the stimulus check will arrive... sir/madam please give your mailman room and do not approach them.

 

I am still amazed that the sheer number of postal employees only a hand full tested positive and only one has passed away from complications from the virus 

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3 minutes ago, CT-Seven said:

I am still amazed that the sheer number of postal employees only a hand full tested positive and only one has passed away from complications from the virus 

 

Take care, and try to stay well!!!

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I found this interesting, perhaps some lessons.  Posted on another Audio forum, by @Ar9Jim.

 

It's ~36 minutes, of data and other learnings.  The last 30 seconds is profound truth from a very exhausted professional in Korea, who led through all this.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, DrummerJuice said:

Way ahead of schedule!

 

 

 

Very humbling and pragmatic, it's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole stuff.

FOr some reason, this type of information is more valuable (to me) than  the 'we'll be back in church by April'.

It's not inciting violence, it's not political or 'look at me' kind of stuff, it doesn't promote panic, it's just information.

 

Thanks for posting this

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2020 at 5:08 PM, RichP714 said:

What Should The Government Spend To Save A Life?

excerpt:  Economists might not be able to say how much an individual person’s existence is worth, but they have figured out a way to calculate how much the average person is willing to pay to reduce the risk of death — which allows them to put a price tag on the collective value of saving one life. That figure, which currently hovers somewhere around $9 or $10 million, is known as the “value of statistical life,” and it’s the basis for all kinds of high-stakes decisions that involve tradeoffs between public safety and economic cost — from food and automobile regulations to our responses to climate change.

 

These numbers show why spending trillions of dollars to combat a threat like the coronavirus pandemic can be a good investment, despite the high cost. “Let’s say one of our worst-case scenarios comes to pass, and 2 million people die,” said James Hammitt, an economist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. “Multiply that by $9 million or $10 million and we’re talking about up to $20 trillion as the value of preventing those deaths. That suggests it’s worth expending a fair amount of our resources to mitigate this.”

 

 

 

Apologies if this content has offended anyone; I wasn't trying to make any type of political statement, one way or the other.  I posted it because, in a regular guys view2, a 2 TRILLION dollar expenditure sounds very very very high; bankruptcy high.

 

The article said, to ME, that although 2 trillion sounds like a very massive spending bill, given that some people, somewhere, have decided that the value of 'Human Capital' is 9-10 million each, and at that price,  given a very dire prediction of 2 millions deaths, the country's Human capital would have been worth 20 TRILLION.

 

thus, by spending 2 trillion in dollars to save 20 trillion in assets, the spending bill is a very good deal.

 

That was my thinking anyway, and I posted it here not to panic people about the economy.

 

Agqain, APologies to anyone I offended

Edited by RichP714

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This is truely nothing. I'm willing to roll the dice. I go about regularily but also practice proper methods to not contaminate anyone else. If I get it, so be it. This can not be contained indefinately. We are only dragging this out. Do as we do every year. Protect those who are prone to the flu and the rest build immunity to protect them in the future. Just wait. The big event will be when the  Ebola Pox is let loose with a vaccine in waiting.

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5 hours ago, RichP714 said:

 

 

Apologies if this content has offended anyone; I wasn't trying to make any type of political statement, one way or the other.  I posted it because, in a regular guys view2, a 2 TRILLION dollar expenditure sounds very very very high; bankruptcy high.

 

The article said, to ME, that although 2 trillion sounds like a very massive spending bill, given that some people, somewhere, have decided that the value of 'Human Capital' is 9-10 million each, and at that price,  given a very dire prediction of 2 millions deaths, the country's Human capital would have been worth 20 TRILLION.

 

thus, by spending 2 trillion in dollars to save 20 trillion in assets, the spending bill is a very good deal.

 

That was my thinking anyway, and I posted it here not to panic people about the economy.

 

Agqain, APologies to anyone I offended

I'm not out to offend anyone myself. I'd trade Trump for our legacy name CLOWM PUPPET in a heartbeat. That being said, Sir Donald either pulled a fast one on TPTB or the American people. As I can see it with the stipulations of sececy in this bill, which has blinded the opposition, and merged the Fed and the Treasury, Trump has become the Head of The Fed. He's either going to bankrupt the private international banksters or the American people. Good luck and GOD BLESS. 👍😊

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2 hours ago, edneck said:

I'm not out to offend anyone myself. I'd trade Trump for our legacy name CLOWM PUPPET in a heartbeat. That being said, Sir Donald either pulled a fast one on TPTB or the American people. As I can see it with the stipulations of sececy in this bill, which has blinded the opposition, and merged the Fed and the Treasury, Trump has become the Head of The Fed. He's either going to bankrupt the private international banksters or the American people. Good luck and GOD BLESS. 👍😊

 

Please tread lightly here. There are folks on this forum that think the President can walk on water, and there are folks here that think he is Satan. Both sides of the aisle are welcome here, and the COVID-19 virus doesn't give a blue or red rat's ass which side of the aisle you're on.

 

Just sayin'.

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15 hours ago, RichP714 said:

 

Very humbling and pragmatic, it's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole stuff.

FOr some reason, this type of information is more valuable (to me) than  the 'we'll be back in church by April'.

It's not inciting violence, it's not political or 'look at me' kind of stuff, it doesn't promote panic, it's just information.

 

Thanks for posting this

+1

Ditto, on all points.

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On 3/26/2020 at 4:22 PM, RichP714 said:

 

That's the sort of apologism I was just thinking about

 

I (and I don't think others) am NOT saying that people want anyone to look bad; that part is taking care of itself, unfortunately.

 

What is being lamented, mostly, I THINK, is the fact that a country has ignored pleas for decades to gear up for this eventuality, and the Richest Nation (in  Capital) in the world has historically decided they'd rather NOT have reserves, but is now putting the brunt of that unpreparedness in our individual laps.

 

A truly wealthy (wealth as in true value not cash) wouldn't ignore decades of advice; they'd have been prepared; they decided NOT to be prepared at suitable levels and are passing the blame.

 

I accept that my own health is my own responsibility, and that's NOT the issue being discussed

 

False choice fallacy tries to limit one's thoughts to two possible realities, usually 'you're either with us, or against us'.  There are nuanced choices between those extremes, and people that try to gaslight others into submission are engaging in borderline criminal behavior

 

 

That's rather uncalled for Rich. I never attacked your 'credibility' to participate in a discussion. I trust that anyone here can take or leave ideas, and if there's anything they want to know more about, can check for themselves.

 

Still, you're quite literally superimposing your own biases on the country. The supply and preparedness is most certainly arguable (as to whom to blame since that is everyone's mindset right now), but there's hardly a reason to get into the details. 

 

My take is far more appropriate. The Medical Industry is a powerful, influential, extremely wealthy (both personally and institutionally) and highly trusted institution in the United States and enjoys many liberties, powers and funding from the government as to how it conducts its business. Just as they control the dialog on this outbreak, they have always controlled the preparedness and supply. You can say all you want about the politicians you hate, but we are NOT a centralized power. Hospital networks, drug companies, medical establishments of all kinds could have taken initiative for their own sakes, to be prepared for this after SARS, MERS and Swine flue just as Asian countries did. They are the people in the know about infections and diseases, and insist they are in the know, and now they're showing up all over TV and YouTube as if they are in the know and still, to my astonishment, are blaming everyone but themselves for this.

 

You want to talk about gas lighting again?

 

Medical Doctors and other Medical Professions OWN medical care and prevention and INSIST on it. This is their circus and now they need a huge government, and citizen, bailout. They were more interested in getting easy money from the government than in thinking about peoples' health. And that isn't new - that's their norm. We're just now seeing it as a hole (pun intended), just as we saw our national defense weakness with 911.

 

Dependency breeds incompetence.

 

And I know from personal experience, questioning the Medical Establishment makes you a villain in our culture.

 

I have studied and worked on my own wellness way before this happened. I have always talked about herbs, wellness and immunity with my friends and family. So my approach to this is typical for me. I don't care if the virus turns you into a donkey - your immune system and overall wellness is ultimately what really matters and people have much more power over it than they think. I've personally seen people overcome diseases that 'have no cure' (including myself). So I'm not an idealist, I'm a witness.

 

We won't have a vaccine for at least 18 months. We won't get any cures, ever. We won't be able to depend on Medical Doctors or politicians. The reason this is such a mess here in the US (and elsewhere for that matter) is because people do not take responsibility for their health. It's a bad word. It makes for uncomfortable conversation. People in general do not respect viruses, and they in turn do not respect how their lifestyle effects their immunity. The Medical Industry, as well as the Food Industry, dressed this table. Not a stupid political party.

 

Only your immune system can save you, and that includes your cleanliness. All the crap about politics and supply is way far away from what people should be focused on. It's too late now. We're far into this and 'last year' doesn't matter anymore. Tomorrow matters.

 

So the good thing about all this, is that people are suddenly aware of how weak their bodies are, and how powerful nature is. That's a damn good place to start with humility. Your doctor can't save you, so take your health into your own hands. Get prepared on your own, in your own house.

 

Reliance on a man in a white house is stupid, no matter where he's from or what letter is before his name.

 

On 3/26/2020 at 9:29 PM, RichP714 said:

All that adaptation takes time, and it's a random chance thing (your acquired immune system tries diligently, relentlessly to find the jackpot combination of proteins that will be effective.  If things get desperate, an immune response can throw a hail mary pass; the last ditch ccytokine reaction is a kill or be killed situation, either the host recovers, or it dies and saves the rest of the heard by doing so.

 

Unfortunately, this virus is fact acting and ramps up very quickly.  Even those that eventually recover will have some degree of fibrotic tissue, as the virus is cytotoxic.

 

Kind of like being marked for life

 

That's not a guarantee by any means. In fact, it's very rare. Such actions by an immune response, as I've said before, are due to abnormal behavior. Typically because of drugs, symptom suppression, constipation, disease or neglect by the doctor. All kinds of diseases can have this effect, literally hundreds. Pneumonia is a systemic condition and can lead to hyper-active or completely abnormal immune response. This is well known from our experience with treating diseases like cancer (which is also systemic, but categorized for scientific purposes). And so it's no accident that over 75% of cancer cases are attributed to lifestyle alone...and risk of pneumonia, if you'd care to look into it a bit further, is closely related to lifestyle choices as well. So the virus doesn't really cause this to the lungs, like, 'coronavirus is a lung destroying disease'. The virus can cause such inflammation and tissue destruction almost anywhere in the body. This has been observed. But it's not special in that regard, most viruses are capable of hiding in cells if they are receptive. (In fact, I don't know for sure but I know that some cell types are capable of receiving a virus but can't replicate it. So it may be the case that certain lung cells are what are known as 'susceptible' but don't replicate the virus, so can remain 'abnormal' until destroyed).

 

A virus is opportunistic. It is not known as a matter of fact that this virus is cytotoxic, at least the way you are implying it is. It's typical for viruses to hide inside of cells, and it can greatly infect tissues and damage them without ever revealing itself until later, when the killer T's start finding abnormal tissue cells. This is 'viral cytotoxicity', and our immune system is well prepared to do battle this way, however, the response is slow, anywhere from 1 to 2 weeks. Patients that suffer from hyper immune response typically have constipated, waste ladened organs and blood. Doctors can't clean up patients that show up in an emergency - they have to work with what they have. And so when this particular virus strikes, it becomes systemic in some patients, and there really isn't much they can do to stop it.

 

Moreover, the fact that many people no longer have tonsils is a HUGE problem. Pretty sure it was the 60's to 80's generation where there was widespread tonsil removals because of swelling, and some odd belief that they weren't really necessary. It just so happens that your tonsils are vital to an appropriate immune response. While the tonsils may not house immune cells and reproduce them, like say the bone marrow, the tonsils sample and communicate invasive pathogens and prepare an immune response. This is a very significant reason why many vaccines, especially those for diseases that enter our bodies through the nose and throat, are not very effective in training appropriate immune response. The immune system is intrinsically related to your body as a whole, and is aware of the environments you are in, because of organs like the tonsils. So when you just inject a pathogen into your bloodstream, you're not engaging other organs in the process, especially the organs than receive the pathogen. So you've informed adaptive immunity, but not innate immunity, which includes much more than just your immune cells. So when a virus enters your lungs and wrecks havoc on your tissues that face the outside of the body, great damage can be done before the antibodies can actually do anything. Just one of the many reasons why flu vaccines are by no means a guarantee of any kind and always fall into risk management, not immunity.

 

And so I am forced to wonder how many critical cases are of people without tonsils. I've seen no data in this regard. And part of me is not surprised.

 

Peace.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nahash5150 said:

I  trust that anyone here can take or leave ideas, and if there's anything they want to know more about, can check for themselves.

 

It's a nuanced thing, but in the spirit of 'check for yourselves' here's some more technical information on why CV is cytotoxic  Also remember it's not the bullet that kills you, its the hole.

 

Into the Eye of the Cytokine Storm (Describes how this can take place; Immunosuppression by hospital personnel is only ONE aspect of this.  Weak immune response is only another aspect of this, but the over-ridingly prevalent aspect is that the disease itselof can be cytotoxic.

 

Targeting the “Cytokine Storm” for Therapeutic Benefit:  excerpt:  the term cytokine storm refers to “collateral damage from a too-strong immune response.” It can happen in response to any infection, and to some genetic therapies.

 

Functional exhaustion of antiviral lymphocytes in COVID-19 patients: nitty (and gritty) on the mechanics of COVID-19 cytotoxicity

 

B Cells, Antibodies, and More

 

The immune system

 

Executive summary:  Cytokine storm can be a weak immune response, it can be innapropriate imnmunbe response suppression, but it is most prevalently a heroic measure from a healthy immune system that's been exposaed to something it doesn't understand .

 

The medical field has its own language:

 

Weak immune response means not-effective.  A Layperson could easily read that people are having a weak immune response and assume that if THEY exercise, then  THEIR immune sysztem would be 'stronger', but it has nothing to do with strength.

 

Tire out means exhausted of its fuel.  A layperson could easily read that paeople are tiringb out, and assume that if theyhit the gym their be more likely to survive, but again, that has nothing to do with strength; ANY system that can no longer metabolize will exhaust its supply, no matter how jacked the body is.

 

1 hour ago, Nahash5150 said:

The supply and preparedness is most certainly arguable

 

If you look back, there have been decades of warning that this is coming;  This country's current leadership is promoting the idea that 'nobody saw this coming', and that is not correct; one can read for themselves (there's plenty of time right how) that this WAS foreseen; we just collectively chose to ignore it.,

 

So, arguable?  perhazps, by those inclined to argue or deflect, but not really substantiated

 

Edited by RichP714
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