New Proton and Perreaux joy! New Magneplanars!

[Butcher 625]

I've been a busy lad these past few months, naught but a moment to spend on hobbies and such, but at a certain point I brought things under control and made good on my long-standing desires to cross a few things off of my list. 

 

First up was a Perreaux 2150B. I'd wanted one of these since I'd first seen one at our store. It was not popular amplifier. Most who came in had never heard of it, the few who were interested ran screaming from the imposing price tag. Needless to say, that amplifier was there from the day the store opened for business to the day it closed. Its heavy, yet delicate, with a sound to match. 

 

The prices these days are very high, as Perreaux components of the era never really dropped in price. Their somewhat rare sell-through to the retail customer in those days guaranteed a high resale value as the age of the internet has introduced the brand to fresh eyes and ears. I knew I had to have this particular amplifier but I dreaded the thought of paying over $1k for a vintage amp, when I could turn that same amount of boodle into several Carver, NAD, and Adcom components. Or perhaps pursue Tandberg, another of my long-standing desires. 

 

It was with great amazement that I discovered a 2150B on a classified listing with an amazingly low price. The seller was quite forthcoming in mentioning that the amplifier had staticky, low output in one channel, and therefore the amp was being sold with no guarantee. Fearing that some of the output transistors had expired I contacted the seller and told him I was interested but the those outputs were at least $20 per, and there were a certain quantity in each rail on each channel. He agreed to cut the price by another third, and we closed the deal. 

 

The amplifier arrived a week later. During that interval I reviewed the schematic and considered the various ways that a channel could go from "working" to "crackly and dim". It finally occurred to me that this might be a voltage issue, and resolved that before I went all pell-mell towards ordering new capacitors I would simply check the rail fuses. I did so, and discovered that the fuses on the negative side had gone off. In went a new pair, and I placed the amp back in the system. Glorious sound issued from the now-mended channel. I could now cross one of my longest desired pieces from the list, and allowing for inflation I bought it for less than a tenth of the original retail price. 

 

On to the next victory.... the Proton D1200. 

 

This was a much more straightforward deal. I purchased this at a fair price from a person who'd already had it completely refurbished, less the unobtanium filter capacitors of course. The one glaring error was that he'd had his shop insert horrible blue lights in place of the original green. I know some of you would like to put blue lamps in everything including traffic signals and Amber Alerts, but I'm not cut of that particular cloth. There is little that is as pleasing to my eyes as vintage green, whether it's my first Sony or a Denon POA or any of a host of other metered components. I quickly rectified this visual affront with a set of excellently crafted LEDs from a gentleman referred by a friend another forum. The final result is very much to my liking. And the sound of the amplifier is exactly as I remembered. Brilliant, with wonderful sparkle and excellent transient response. 

 

The final battle that closed this particular war... the Magnepan MG-12/QR. 

 

As folks who get dragged into my threads know, due to a post by another member who'd gotten quite the equipment score I became interested in panel speakers. I'd gotten the bug and then posted up questions about the various technologies in use by Apogee, Magnepan, Acoustat, etc. Of course I was directed towards Carver speakers, but the fascination with the differing approaches offered by other companies was never far from my mind. Recently I found myself in contact with a person who possessed a pair of Magnepan speakers. At our store we used to mock their early 80s offerings as thin and lacking in bass, but I'd heard tell of a particular set of mods that could bring out the best in these. My interest was piqued. 

 

Following an audition of said speakers I was left with the impression that they were flat, grainy, lacking in dynamics, and sounded perhaps as if they were at the end of long tubes connected to the wrong parts of my ears. In short - abysmal. A friend of mine told me that no matter what was wrong with them, at the price they were offered I should buy them. If they were completely knackered I could send them to Magnepan for repair and still be ahead. After a thorough inspection to look for delamination and lifting of the diaphragm wires, I decided to buy them. I assisted in removing the wires and preparing the speakers for travel, whereupon I noticed that he had bi-wired them with some high quality cables. I'm not a fan of this technique, and I asked him why he'd done so. He said he'd used those wires with his previous speakers to great effect, so he maintained the same connection with the Magnepans. I like to use the principal of inertia with things like furniture and space flight, but not with dubious methods of connecting speakers, so I resolved to hook the speakers up the traditional way. I asked him if he had the jumpers for the soon to be unused terminals and he did not. No matter, I could make some myself out of 12 gauge copper wire. 

 

Upon arriving at home, I carried these relatively lightweight panels (40lbs each, give or take) to my main listening room upstairs, as the downstairs area is currently occupied by my stalwart Polk SDA SRS. Following the brief period of assembly, which is just attaching two L-shaped metal legs to the frames with two bolts each, I made ready to attach the speaker wires by first examining the terminal plates to find which pair of jacks would receive the wires and which would receive the jumpers. It was then that I noticed one pair of connections had the familiar plus and minus labelling, but the other one was noted as "tweeter attenuation". For once in my bloody life I decided to turn to the product manual, where I discovered that Magneplanar was responding to customers who felt the traditional panels had shouty tweeters, so they offered these jumped connections plus a 1 ohm resistor if the customer felt particularly sensitive to the highs. The previous owner apparently didn't read the manual and had never bothered to look at what was written on the terminal plate. I found a spare set of jumpers in my collection and applied them in the appropriate locations. 

 

(It's at this point that I must mention that what the gentlemen had done by hooking his speakers up in that fashion should have destroyed his amplifier, but didn't. He was essentially running the amp back into itself, applying the positive cable to two locations in the crossover. Had I done that I'd probably be looking at an ash heap where my home once stood.)

 

Research showed that Mags respond well to two things: room treatments, and massive increases in power. My exploration began with trying different amplifiers. As I'd previously had the NAD 2150 in that room, I left it in place. It sounded good... clear, detailed, with decent separation. But the bass was deficient. I then switched to the Perreaux. That amplifier was near the top of my list with most of my other speakers, but with the MG-12, it did not sound good. It was actually below the NAD. I then switched to the Carver M4.0t, which has been bouncing around Schloss Butcher looking for something to do. And once I tried it in this system it bounced right back out, for it didn't sound very good with these speakers. 

 

In desperation I tried the Proton, and there I stayed. Despite have the lowest continuous power rating of the lot (tied with the NAD, actually) it had the best sound. But the right channel was still deficient. 

 

I contacted my friend, a very learned person with all things Magnepan, and the first thing he suggested was "check the fuse" which I did. I found that the fuse holder was cracked in two, allowing the fuse to float with the terminals attached-ish to the fuse ends. I pressed everything back in place and considered hot gluing the holder into submission, but a closer examination of the connection area showed that there were scorch marks on the capacitors in the crossover. It would appear that the bi-wire of Death (Die-Wire?) had nearly caused a fire after all. I replaced all of the axial electrolytics with proper film capacitors, and for good measure I bypassed both the fuse and the attenuator links. Reassembly was the reverse of disassembly, and all that. And the sound was much improved. 

 

But at that point I was listening to a much simpler speaker through a much improved amplifier and preamp, and I still had some sound issues. The imaging wasn't quite there although the trademark Magnepan "instruments hanging in space" thing was very much evident. At this point I decided to attack the other end of the equation, that of room treatment. 

 

We somewhat lovingly refer to our home as the Castle of Everlasting Echoes, or as some of the villagers call it, Overhang Manor. Some of the oddest acoustics you would ever hope not to meet. And it was there that my expert friend said I should be focusing my efforts. After he was satisfied that I had placed the speakers properly (upon the longest wall, with so many feet between them, and between them and the back wall, and between them and the side walls, etc) he said "You need to put carpet in there, overstuffed furniture, maybe even some acoustic panels on the ceiling".  Because here it is going on two years after I began arranging this room and I STILL haven't settled on some decent seating, more's the pity, I procured a rug that was perhaps 8 X 10 and flopped it on the hardwood floor, then sat upon a stack of cushiony bits for a listen as best I could.

 

I was more than impressed by the results, to put a medium-fine point on it. All of the haze was gone from the music, and the bass came right up. Still a bit light but nowhere near as deficient as it was before. I put on a Yello disc and found it pleasantly amazing. The detail was exactly what I was looking for, despite the bass issues. It's a very demanding disc so I replaced it with some Brazilian samba - Getz, Gilberto, Joabim, etc. These were early 60s recordings on gas station CDs, yet they are among my favorite demo products. Rich, breathy detail to everything, and the strings are extremely taut and present. I then switched to classical tracks. The Magnepans were perfect for Debussy, Dvorak, Brahms, and Strauss. Not so good with Wagner but that may just be too complicated for them in their present configuration. I think I may try them with a subwoofer, but from what I've read these shouldn't need it once they're tweaked in. Research continues. 

 

 

Edited July 23 by Butcher

[Will Meyer 1,763]

I have a set of MG-12/QRs. I love them.  I also have a set of LRSs and IMHO the 12s sound better. I'm pushing my 12s with a TFM-45, the LRSs with a Yamaha MX-830. 

 

The Magnepans sound better (again IMHO) when they are mounted straight up and down (perpendicular to the floor).  They have stands for this that are a bit pricey such as Magna Stands.  I've made 3 sets (each set consists of 4 uprights), one of cherry to match my LRSs, one set in walnut to match the trim of my 12s, and a set in oak for a buddy's MMGs. Each leg consists of two 1" x 1.5" x 18".  I dado one and stick the other in to for an upside down T.  Other than drilling the hole pattern and finishing them, thats all there is to them.  I'll attach pictures if you are interested.

 

I commented on this before, but I'll say it again - Awesome Reel to Reel!

[radtraveller 152]

1.7i here.. but on full rug with seemingly thick padding… maybe just thick rug.. I have yet to pull it up for any reason, but I don’t get much “floor bounce” and no reflection from hardwood.

the slight backward tilt, the thickness of one of the plastic washers, seems enough though to keep sound from “disappearing” into the rug.

[4krow 4,402]

Well done. No, I didn't read the entire post. Too much for me, but I actually did own a Perrauex preamp many years ago. At the time I wasn't impressed. Thinking back, it did what it was designed to do, and that is not stand in the way. Would be interesting to hear it again.

[Butcher 625]

5 hours ago, Will Meyer said:

I have a set of MG-12/QRs. I love them.  I also have a set of LRSs and IMHO the 12s sound better. I'm pushing my 12s with a TFM-45, the LRSs with a Yamaha MX-830. 

 

I believe the TFM-45 is near kinfolk to my M4.0t, so one wonders why it sounded so poor here. Perhaps now that I've planted the rug garden I'll give it another go 'round. And if it still fails to work a charm, then off it goes to Nelion for a spa date. 

 

5 hours ago, Will Meyer said:

 

The Magnepans sound better (again IMHO) when they are mounted straight up and down (perpendicular to the floor).  They have stands for this that are a bit pricey such as Magna Stands.  I've made 3 sets (each set consists of 4 uprights), one of cherry to match my LRSs, one set in walnut to match the trim of my 12s, and a set in oak for a buddy's MMGs. Each leg consists of two 1" x 1.5" x 18".  I dado one and stick the other in to for an upside down T.  Other than drilling the hole pattern and finishing them, thats all there is to them.  I'll attach pictures if you are interested.

 

I was first very resistive to the 5 degree lean, given that it reminded me much of certain vintage speakers I wasn't fond of. But I've also learned that the tilt increased the ambient character of the music, whereas vertical baffles were more the direct beam. Even so, one of the earliest mods for these speakers is to reduce the bend in the metal feet to a less-radical 2 or 3 degree tilt, which may be better for the lowered seating position as I sit like a sultan on piles of cushions. But then, what of the day many years hence when I bring proper furnishings into the room? Chaos might result. I'll leave the tilt be- for the now, anyway. 

 

5 hours ago, Will Meyer said:

 

I commented on this before, but I'll say it again - Awesome Reel to Reel!

 

Thank you! I'm hoping to find it a mate - either an X2000 in black, or a Tandberg TD20A. But I'll have to search far and wide to find another deal like this one. 

[Ar9Jim 4,659]

Good to see you Butcher. We have some MGIIIAs here at Bob's factory. The maggies love tube amps. We will run them for a group this weekend with the new RAM 285. At Axpona this year we joined forces with Magnepan on day 3 and the factory guys were thrilled with the results. Expect more with Bob Carver and Magnepan.. Those speakers love amps with nice wide voltage swings. 

Edited July 21 by Ar9Jim

[itchitch 3,620]

21 hours ago, Butcher said:

On to the next victory.... the Proton D1200.

 

Congratulations on owning a really fun amp.

I have refreshed two of these and still own them.

 

Two areas you may want to confirm were addressed in the 'refurbishment':

 

The RCA inputs are a known issue - the leads are board mounted and do crack.

Both of my units had 'intermittent sound' in the seller ads. The RCA inputs were the problem

in both of them. I replaced them with chassis mounted inputs.

 

The Speaker Relays on both of mine needed replacement.

[iamjohngalt 1,875]

I'm glad to hear you're nearing the end of your journey to great sounding Maggies.

I haven't heard the MG12's.

I have heard several other non-ribbon Maggies: MG1.6QR, MMGs, LRS's.

They all lacked the pleasant and realistic sound of MG2.5R's, MG2.6R's, MGIIIa's, MG3.3R's, and MG3.6R's, even when driven with the same Carver amps.

I've had great results on those Maggies (with ribbon tweeters) using Carver TFM22, TFM24, TFM42, and m4.0t  amps.

I had also tried a Pioneer Elite HT receiver (90w/ch) and a 200w/ch Emotiva LPA-1 HT amp with Maggies.

The Pioneer was lacking in bass (probably due to lower power) and the Emotiva was lacking the Carver's sweet tube like sound.

[Butcher 625]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:11 PM, itchitch said:

 

Congratulations on owning a really fun amp.

I have refreshed two of these and still own them.

 

Two areas you may want to confirm were addressed in the 'refurbishment':

 

The RCA inputs are a known issue - the leads are board mounted and do crack.

Both of my units had 'intermittent sound' in the seller ads. The RCA inputs were the problem

in both of them. I replaced them with chassis mounted inputs.

 

The Speaker Relays on both of mine needed replacement.

 

These inputs are floaty bits that move at the touch of a cable, so I've been sure to use a looser pair to avoid stressing them. I've a nice pair of gold inputs from another amp project that'll work well in that position. I bought them for one of my Adcoms but I feel the Proton is more deserving at this time. 

 

I'm a bit of a maniac when it comes to Proton and have been since the early 1980s, spending most of my days at the only shop that dealt in their particular brand of magic. I've 9 of their amplifiers here, along with a very nice D940 receiver. I also have a few NAD pieces they built which I doubt I'll part with unless I need to free up space. 

 

[Butcher 625]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:08 PM, iamjohngalt said:

I'm glad to hear you're nearing the end of your journey to great sounding Maggies.

I haven't heard the MG12's.

I have heard several other non-ribbon Maggies: MG1.6QR, MMGs, LRS's.

They all lacked the pleasant and realistic sound of MG2.5R's, MG2.6R's, MGIIIa's, MG3.3R's, and MG3.6R's, even when driven with the same Carver amps.

I've had great results on those Maggies (with ribbon tweeters) using Carver TFM22, TFM24, TFM42, and m4.0t  amps.

I had also tried a Pioneer Elite HT receiver (90w/ch) and a 200w/ch Emotiva LPA-1 HT amp with Maggies.

The Pioneer was lacking in bass (probably due to lower power) and the Emotiva was lacking the Carver's sweet tube like sound.

 

I never thought about buying these until I happened to see a particularly beautiful pair of MMG that someone had completely improved by making a furniture-quality frame for the driver panels. I was smitten, resolving to search for a proper pair for myself. If I didn't have that informing my decision I most likely would never have bought these. They honestly sounded quite dreadful, but I'd already formed the plan in my mind and resolved to see it through. 

[AndrewJohn 7,223]

10 hours ago, Butcher said:

someone had completely improved by making a furniture-quality frame for the driver panels.

 

You probably have already found these links, but just in case.  some very good reading on Magnapans, by the long-time Expert, Peter Gunn (his pseudonym, not his real name - but googling "Peter Gunn Magnapan" will give you a lot of links, many on AK (he's not there anymore, for another good story he'll tell you on his site:

 

https://www.magnestand.com/   Read his about page, and go from there.

 

or on the Magnapan User Group MUG..., to get a perspective on how deep his knowledge is on your maggies...

 

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/repair.html

 

 

FWIW, If you are thinking about "Magna Risers" (from yet another vendor online)  for replacement feet..., I recommend against those - I returned mine.

 

 

[Butcher 625]

21 minutes ago, AndrewJohn said:

 

You probably have already found these links, but just in case.  some very good reading on Magnapans, by the long-time Expert, Peter Gunn (his pseudonym, not his real name - but googling "Peter Gunn Magnapan" will give you a lot of links, many on AK (he's not there anymore, for another good story he'll tell you on his site:

 

https://www.magnestand.com/   Read his about page, and go from there.

 

or on the Magnapan User Group MUG..., to get a perspective on how deep his knowledge is on your maggies...

 

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/repair.html

 

 

FWIW, If you are thinking about "Magna Risers" (from yet another vendor online)  for replacement feet..., I recommend against those - I returned mine.

 

 

 

No need to reinvent the (racing) wheel, to be sure. The MMG I mentioned above were done at PG's shop, and I've been absorbing his advice every step of the way.

 

Though I'd never been involved in his discussions nor the Great Planar Wars that caused him to remove himself, I've been privy to similar things in other interests. It's always stunned me how book smart and world-foolish people can be whilst online. A mate had a particular amplifier, modified by a particular guru who is long removed from the audio world now, an amplifier which sounds - to put a very sharp point on it - astounding. (I've personally heard this amplifier on a modest system in a modest room, and I've been hard-pressed ever since to find anything that sounded close to it.) Yet when he discussed it with people online, he was told that it couldn't possibly work, and if it did, then it couldn't possibly sound good. And if it did sound good, then he was wrong, and it could be proven with calculations and instruments that it didn't sound as good as he thought it did.

 

 

 

[AndrewJohn 7,223]

52 minutes ago, Butcher said:

It's always stunned me how book smart and world-foolish people can be whilst online.

 

I think I know what amplifier you are talking about! 😉 

 

As to being stunned, like you - although I am much less eloquent, I used to generally be "stunned" when experiencing such situations..., then the last 5-6 years happened.  Now, I just move on, and shake my head, reminding myself of the Abe Lincoln / Mark Twain quote (paraphrased): "Better to be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth (online, so it's permanent/persistent for all to see forever...) and remove all doubt."  ...yet realizing that I may be the minority that made the connection when applying discernment to the words.

 

(I amend/modernize the quotation with the "online" note...) 😉 

[itchitch 3,620]

On 7/22/2023 at 9:15 PM, Butcher said:

These inputs are floaty bits that move at the touch of a cable

 

After removing the speaker terminal assembly - it's a fairly easy process to install new chassis mount RCA inputs.

The leads are a bit longer than I had wanted but, their length was necessary to access the through holes.

 

The empty locations on the board (C609 C610 C628) are for the bridgeable version of the amp - mine is not

Here is what I did:

 

 

[Butcher 625]

38 minutes ago, itchitch said:

 

After removing the speaker terminal assembly - it's a fairly easy process to install new chassis mount RCA inputs.

The leads are a bit longer than I had wanted but, their length was necessary to access the through holes.

 

The empty locations on the board (C609 C610 C628) are for the bridgeable version of the amp - mine is not

Here is what I did:

 

 

 

I see you've removed the speaker terminals as well. Those were a touch more sturdy than the inputs, but I could see they'd do well with a bit of pepping up. What went in their place?

[itchitch 3,620]

I reinstalled them