Short Horns

[4krow 6,513]

  In my corner of the world, experimenting is a must. The latest what if came to me when I listening to my room (not my speakers) and wondered if a short horn would have a beneficial effect on the presentation. Unfortunately, the short answer seems to be yes, and so after the experiment, I must find a way to attach the short horns more permanently to the driver front. Still will have the option to take them off in the future.

 

 

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

 

Removable horns sound interestng - and that's No Bull!

 

(Sorry @4krow- given your title, my lack of willpower kinda took over...)

[4krow 6,513]

Horns or not cattle outweigh us enough to have their way. Only this morning, I met with a young lady that didn't fare too well with a calf and it's mother. Broke her shoulder blade as she was being pushed and tossed.

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

Ouch!  Yes, way too easy to get hurt with that much mass.  

[4krow 6,513]

If the target is determined by the bullseye, then the direction of our aim is easy. It can be easily measured by most anyone who sees the target after the shot has been fired. I have come to realize that this not my choosing when it concerns taste in audio. There, I've said it. There is no accounting for taste. No doubt we account for the audio bullseye when starting the journey, but soon enough for me it becomes something else that I am searching for. 

 ..........Quite a preamble, I realize. Just enough for me to say that whether it is logical to physics, or opinion in general, I like what I am hearing with these short horns, and really wasn't expecting this outcome. It was just another experiment, after all. Thing is, if the volume is set right (lower than usual), then I am hearing an ornamental presentation of most music. So what, it isn't natural, and probably not right for many listeners, yet the novelty hasn't yet wore off, and I smile a big smile and accept it at that. I hear right above my head, behind me, and far left and right. I will listen more, and then compare without these attachments after awhile.  

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

That is the reason you experiment, after all.  There's always that chance the results will not only be positive but greatly so.  So what if some paths lead nowhere - often enough they do.

 

If the positive feelings haven't worn off, by now, they are clearly real and not just wishful imagination.   

 

If it sounds good to you, then it doesn't matter if it does for others.

 

In other words, ENJOY! 

[4krow 6,513]

GOD! Only one step closer. I have added the second layer of cabinet to this set. Now there is no need to insure them, they can't be moved. So, I found some Corian at a surplus store, AND two pieces from the local church. Well, what would you do with a bunch of Corian? I would slap them on speaker cabinets and dull a couple of router bits to trim them up with. Until the next part comes in, I have to have another listen. Maybe the bass will be better (heavier).

 

 

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

Nice work!  I rather like the look of the corian on those, and yeah, it ought to make them pretty darn stable.  Hope it has the desired effect on the bass.

 

Those are starting to look really good.  Flipping back to your earlier picks, you are FAR more than one step closer.  There's been a lot more work on those in the mean time that you aren't admitting to.  

[4krow 6,513]

Brian,

 

  Have you been crouching in the hedges again? Why yes, I have taken many showers after numerous routing sessions. The Corian is very fine, and I will be glad to be done with it. Hmmm, this message isn't reading like I wanted it to. Anyway, bushes aside, some of the unmentioned includes layers of 'acoustic paint' between some of the layers of the cabinet walls, many many clamps in all directions, and still a gap, well glued in place the next morning when I went to check on the condition that my condition is in.

 These had better sound even more impressive than before. I need them to, my chiropractor needs them to, my massage therapist needs them to, and then there is my psychiatric team who really need a break from me.

[Rob 5,942]

So, are you using just 1 full range driver in those cabinets?

[4krow 6,513]

Yes, it is the Mark Audio 12P. It is supposedly an 8" driver but there sure is a lot of basket and surround. Cone probably measures more like 6". Anyway, because they are playing inside a folded bass horn, there is little shortage of that. I tried a sub with them, and must adjust the crossover freq. to the sub somewhere in the 50hz range. About 90db sensitivity, and I am giving them 22 wpc class A amplification with a huge power supply. The sub amp is class D. I built it about 1 year ago. It is only putting out 50 wpc. This combination in my room is just where I want to be acoustically. Room is 8 x 13 x 19.

Edited June 21, 2020 by 4krow
OMG, I said digital, not class D

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

Well, I think your psychiatric team were last seen headed upstream to the upper reaches of the Amazon, babbling incoherently all the way.  Odds are, if they go far enough, they may catch up with mine.

 

If you knew what I look like, you'd know "crouching in hedges" isn't terribly viable, which applies to any form of stealth.  

 

Given their weight, be glad you didn't opt for 10" or 12" speakers, not that they would be well suited to a full range speaker.  You might have to shore up the joists and subfloor.

 

Sounds like you have a nice set of gear ready to drive them.  Getting sound down to 50hz is no mean feat.  I'd say you are getting some pretty good results from that folded horn.  Acoustic paint always struck me as likely to be a PITA to work with - just from needing a lot of delicate handling.  And I totally get using a veritable forest of clamps and still having a gap.   I'm glad that you persevered.  

 

I find full range / folded horns fascinating, as they just seem to defy logic for me, yet the results are undeniable from my limited opportunities to hear them.

 

You're almost there- in the home stretch  - keep going, but no hernia's allowed.  Show us some pics of the whole system together (or intermediate steps before that, too).  

 

Thanks, again for posting this - I've certainly enjoyed it, and learned from it.

 

 

[4krow 6,513]

Dude, Sometime later, these will be finished and much more worthy of photos. I appreciate your interest. The plans for this model can be seen at Decware Audio. I made the model DNA2, which are just a set of enlarged plans for the original DNA model. That model has some great ideas for smaller bass horns such as this.

 

 

[kve777 6,881]

Nice to see someone put in this kind of effort. I've given up on making speaker cabinets for the foreseeable future. Low power, single driver stuff just not doing it for me anymore. Amazing sound quality when it's right, no doubt rewarding. Enjoy!

[4krow 6,513]

  Yes, it is a challenge on more than one level. Usually bass shy, soft treble, and the dreaded midrange shout. That should be enough for most reasonable folks to take the hint. Funny thing, the drivers can be very expensive, and NOT worth it. God, I tried everything and ended up shaking my head. The hard core single driver guys are all in denial about the shout thing. They say that the bass is natural not boomy. Not many talk about the treble because they lost the ability to hear it long ago.

 Probably would have been the end of the road for me as well, until I heard the Mark Audio drivers. Got to put them in the right cabinet though. They don't have any more bass than most other drivers. So then, a folded horn was a good choice. One down, two to go. Surprisingly, I hear nothing in the way of midrange shout. Great, two down, one to go. Well, nothing is perfect, and this is where the Mark Audio driver may need some help by means of a ribbon tweeter. Not too bad of a trade off, since I might get away with using a simple cap between the drivers.

 Back to the bass. Don't get the idea that the bass is perfect. Truth is, I doubt that there is such a thing as a FULL range driver that has it all. What is accomplished with this horn design, is that the bass is strong all the way down to somewhere in the upper 40hz range. So far, I have augmented this with a sub, but there again matching will be important. When the sub is added, the bass gets too fat, and still not as deep as other subs. Presently, I am experimenting with 2 Audio Nirvana 8" drivers that simply need better/different cabinets to work well below 40hz. I do actually have a single 10" passive sub that will be put to the test. It will  go quite deep below 40hz. The challenge will be in the mating. Then there are Ripole subs....We'll see.

Edited June 21, 2020 by 4krow
spellying

[4krow 6,513]

Just a brief update. I have connected the above mentioned sub that has some real depth to it, and crossed the speakers over at 80hz with 6db slope. Supposing that 80hz is the knee of 3db att. it is just a starting point. I do not know the default for the low pass to the sub. I own a Velodyne SMS1 product that makes it easy to mate a sub and measure the room for bass response as well. I say easy because the other course is not so bad, being a program that you can adjust the parameters yourself, but takes awhile to do. For now, I opt for quick and dirty.

 

 So the result so far is that I have the sub turned waaay down indicating that I should be readjusting the crossover points. Still, I appreciate the addition of a sub where the music demands it.

 

 Soundwise, this is a good start but certainly not the end. 

 

 I would like some advice concerning the use of an active sub, in that I want to get back into using a servo technique rather than this setup. What I am asking is how I might choose a servo driver and then build a bass system to drive it.