The Carver Amazing Loudspeaker. It's not just a loudspeaker. It's a WTF

[martin1970 361]

Initially, I built my entire system around a set of Carver Amazings (plat upgraded originals)

And it sounded like - well, it sounded like shit.

 

So, I did the BillD & Reese biamping mod. Bought the active crossovers and parametrics.

Marginally better, but still sounded like - well, not like shit anymore. Let's say ass.

It sounded like ass.

 

OK, upgraded the signal chain so basically straight digital right up to the Sunfires then into the Amazings.

Better still, but not much.

Let's call the sound  solidly 'meh'

 

Brought home a set of Dahlquist DQ-8s.

Crossed the Amazings into them from about 6000 Hz up.

OK, now we're getting somewhere - crisp clear highs.

Couldn't crank it without blowing fuses, but wow, so much better-sounding at normal levels.

 

Next came the woofers.

Bought a set of 4 Acoustic Elegance IB15 woofers with the intention of building something but never did.

Just stuck them on the floor, crossed them in at about 80Hz and WOW! the bass was spectacular.

At this point, you know, ten grand or so into this, I realize that I'm trying to get blood from a stone here.

The Amazings just suck in my living room.  

Disconnected the Amazings but left them in place. Took out the DQ-8s.

Put in a set of DQ-10s from 200 Hz up using the existing IB15 subwoofers.

It was a revelation!

Imaging. Dynamics. Clarity. In short - Audio magic! 

 

So you know...

WTF, right?

 

The plan then becomes, let's bring the whole mess to Carverfest 2015 and see if someone there can figure out what the hell is going on. I give Rabbit a call and he agrees that we can try to dial in the crossovers to get these things sounding good.

 

As it turns out, there's too damned much else to do at Carverfest to waste time dicking with active crossovers. 

So, they ended up crammed into the corner in Cabin 9 and went for a pointless 10 hour round trip to North Carolina.

The DQ-10s and the rest of the system sounded pretty good at Carverfest, but not nearly as good as in my living room.

 

After Carverfest, I didn't feel like dragging the heavy damned Amazings all the way into the living room. Hooked up the rest of the system and it sounded just like it did at Carverfest. 

In other words, the bass was a bit thin. Imaging wasn't really there like it had been - soundstage was collapsed.

Now what? Jeez-

 

Well, today, I finally got tired of tripping over the Amazings and put them back in the living room.

Didn't hook them up, of course. Just put them behind the DQ-10s like before Carverfest.

Put on some music, and - VOILA!

Imaging was back.

Bass was back.

Sound is spectacular again.

What in the hell is going on here?

Have I just stumbled onto the greatest room treatment in history?

 

Wha? Why? 

Anybody have a clue? 

[Ar9Jim 6,512]

Maybe the inactive drivers in the amazings are acting as bass traps and or absorption panels ? Put a variable resistor across the binding post and maybe you can tune the frequency they dampen. Lol. You discovered a new product. 'Tunable traps' or "passive damping". You know, what you have is a passive radiator principal in reverse .

[martin1970 361]

That makes sense.

Heck, could they also be resonating sympathetically?

It's utterly astonishing to me that they sound so abysmally bad in this room - yet, they make other speakers sound great.

Maybe they're possessed.

I need to finish my CF speakers.

I'm curious what THEY sound like with the wtf Amazings back. 

 

[PMAT 2,038]

UncleMeat has the same speakers (upgraded Originals) that were wired wrong and sounded like shit. Now they shine.

[martin1970 361]

Wish it was that simple.

These are straight wired for biamping.

No crossovers or 5 o'clock Friday factory mistakes to blame, I'm afraid. 

[PMAT 2,038]

I Think the woofers were all wrong, not the crossover. Might be worth checking. When the foundation is wrong the house is crooked.

[martin1970 361]

Replaced all of the wiring back in 2010 when I did the Bill & Reese biamping mod.

 

 

 

[PMAT 2,038]

It looks like the bottom woofer (flipped around physically) is wired out of phase. I could be wrong, but I did that at first when I did the surrounds on mine. I just cant imagine a bass problem with the bigger Amazings.

[martin1970 361]

They're wired right.

Below 50 Hz, the honeycombs smoke if you really push them.

[UncleMeat 1,173]

With the bi-amping are you using an active crossover to put the notch filtering in for the ribbons? On mine one of the ribbons was wired directly to the inputs and it sounded horrible because it was getting full range signal and no notch filtering.

 

In addition, imaging and bass seems to be inter-related with them; if you don't have them placed correctly the bass will either self-cancel or cross-cancel. I kept tweaking the position of them until I started getting good imaging, and with that the bass improved; before getting the position dialed in the overall sound was lack-luster. Paul's Silvers still sound better but he also has a better overall room setup (he can place them further from the back and side walls, wall-to-wall carpet, etc).

[martin1970 361]

With the bi-amping are you using an active crossover to put the notch filtering in for the ribbons? On mine one of the ribbons was wired directly to the inputs and it sounded horrible because it was getting full range signal and no notch filtering.

I started with an active crossover and two manual parametrics. Then I moved up to a pair of digital multiprocessors. Finally, I upgraded to 4 later model dsp units. Three of them are 2x6 units and one is a 2x8 unit. Wiring and routing the signal processing was never an issue. Hell, here's nine pages on just trying to time align the damned things.
And here's an earlier iteration of my notch filtering in DSP from four years ago. That biamping thread BillD did is pretty much the bible on how to work with these speakers - a must-read for all Amazing owners.

In addition, imaging and bass seems to be inter-related with them; if you don't have them placed correctly the bass will either self-cancel or cross-cancel. I kept tweaking the position of them until I started getting good imaging, and with that the bass improved; before getting the position dialed in the overall sound was lack-luster. Paul's Silvers still sound better but he also has a better overall room setup (he can place them further from the back and side walls, wall-to-wall carpet, etc).

 Moved these things around for years: toe in, toe out, laser pointers, tape measures, carpet, no carpet, Cardas rules, etc. At the end of the day, I believe some room shapes and sizes simply do not work with Amazings. In my case, 11'2" x 25' is a disaster for these speakers. I thought the sidewall interactions would be irrelevant with dipoles, given their figure 8 dispersion. It turns out that they just won't image AT ALL in a narrow room. There are only 3 locations in the soundstage. Left ribbon, right ribbon, center. As soon as I replaced them with another speaker, BAM! Great sound. 

      The thing that is just so astonishing (and why I chose to do this thread) is just how effective they are as room treatments. Am I the only one that thinks that is just nuts?

As far as trying to get the Amazings to sound good going forward, I've got a couple of things yet to try. One of these days, I'm going to cut the slots

 Also, I talked to Bob about them a bit at Carverfest this year and he made a few suggestions involving some passive crossover elements and tweaking in DSP. I've got so many other audio projects I need to finish before then though.

Still have to build a third pair of Carverfest speakers, recap a couple of M1.0ts, build a dipole sub enclosure,  finish a Carverfest amp from 5 years ago, a balanced BillD C-1 mod that's been 90% for a couple of years, etc, etc. 

 

[Ar9Jim 6,512]

Its interesting that Bob made suggestions involving "passive crossover elements". My old AR9s come set up for bi-ampping but the engineer says to never defeat the passive crossover because " its design and function can not be reproduced using an active crossover".  It goes on to say you can use an active crossover but the Hi and low pass need to overlap at least an octave on both sides of the crossover point to allow the passive to function and not degrade the performance. The AR9s are 4 way but maybe the crossover situation is similar? I think its a similar situation with Infinity Kappa 9s.  Some of the passive cap and coil crossover designs have some "magic" in them designed by masters. It might be impossible to duplicate those with an active crossover.

[weitrhino 1,443]

Martin, is there any way you can post a diagram of your room showing speaker placement, listening position, and any other major elements in the room? That you've had trouble getting them to sound, well, amazing in your room is very curious to me as I had mine in a very similarly sized room and they sounded glorious. I'd truly like to get a better sense of your layout.

[Ar9Jim 6,512]

 

 

Martin, is there any way you can post a diagram of your room showing speaker placement, listening position, and any other major elements in the room? That you've had trouble getting them to sound, well, amazing in your room is very curious to me as I had mine in a very similarly sized room and they sounded glorious. I'd truly like to get a better sense of your layout.

Hi Weitrhino. Just curious, factory passive crossovers in place?

[weitrhino 1,443]

Martin, is there any way you can post a diagram of your room showing speaker placement, listening position, and any other major elements in the room? That you've had trouble getting them to sound, well, amazing in your room is very curious to me as I had mine in a very similarly sized room and they sounded glorious. I'd truly like to get a better sense of your layout.

Hi Weitrhino. Just curious, factory passive crossovers in place?

 

Yes. 

[martin1970 361]

 

 

Its interesting that Bob made suggestions involving "passive crossover elements". My old AR9s come set up for bi-ampping but the engineer says to never defeat the passive crossover because " its design and function can not be reproduced using an active crossover". It goes on to say you can use an active crossover but the Hi and low pass need to overlap at least an octave on both sides of the crossover point to allow the passive to function and not degrade the performance. The AR9s are 4 way but maybe the crossover situation is similar? I think its a similar situation with Infinity Kappa 9s. Some of the passive cap and coil crossover designs have some "magic" in them designed by masters. It might be impossible to duplicate those with an active crossover.

Very astute observations. You are correct. I've not gone into detail on what he suggested because I haven't asked him if it's OK to discuss and I don't really want to bug him without first trying his suggestions.

Since you mentioned the kappas....

Why doesn't anyone try separating those five paralled circuits in the mid-tweeter section of the crossover? Seems silly to try to drive all that with one amp channel. It's no wonder they're amp killers!

 

[martin1970 361]

 

 

Martin, is there any way you can post a diagram of your room showing speaker placement, listening position, and any other major elements in the room? That you've had trouble getting them to sound, well, amazing in your room is very curious to me as I had mine in a very similarly sized room and they sounded glorious. I'd truly like to get a better sense of your layout.

 

Not able to do a diagram ATM from cellphone but the pic in this thread shows everything in the room other than the couch (where i took the pic from)and coffee table. Front half of the room carpeted. Back half not. Bare walls. Huge window left open to dining front right. Acoustically worst room imaginable. Well, except for every other room in the house. Every room has 11'2" as the short dimension. Yay 1950s!

[UncleMeat 1,173]

Could you take some photos of the crossovers you have disconnected?  Is it possible that the ribbons were either connected to the crossovers incorrectly or you have the 30" crossovers with 60" upgrade ribbons?  Do you have the ability to measure the room response to the speakers and then make adjustments?

 

The room my Amazings are in is only 11'9" wide where the speakers are placed, 24' long, and the room is L-shaped with an additional 12' x 12' section (also horrible for audio).  Speakers are only toed in about 1.5", the difference measured to the lower corners from the back wall.  They are appx 26" from the back wall and 4" from the side wall at the lower outer corners.  Imaging is not as good as my AL-III's when in a similar location (but further from the side walls) but the overall sound is improved.  I'm not getting very much stereo image from far left and right because the speakers are too close to the side walls and should probably be further from the back wall also.  I can't put them where they should be ideally because of a doorway on the left side and sliding door to the back yard. 

 

Something else to consider is that with the original crossovers; there must be changes in phase to either the ribbons, or the woofers (or more likely both) because of those large coils and caps in the crossover.  

[UncleMeat 1,173]

I just took a look at my woofer wiring; it should be the following (where + terminal wired with red, - terminal wired with black):

 

The two upper woofers are wired in parallel (+ to +, - to -). The two lower woofers are also in parallel. There is a white wire connecting the + side of the lower pair to the - side of the upper pair. The red wire to the XO comes from + side of the upper pair, the black wire for the XO comes from the - side of the lower pair.

 

Edit:

I was looking at your photos again; as far as I can tell the wiring appears to be correct.

[martin1970 361]

 

 

Could you take some photos of the crossovers you have disconnected?

Does this post look familiar? 

 

 

Is it possible that the ribbons were either connected to the crossovers incorrectly or you have the 30" crossovers with 60" upgrade ribbons? 

Read the part number on this invoice and compare it to the part number on this crossover.

 

 

Do you have the ability to measure the room response to the speakers and then make adjustments?

 

Yeah, did lots and lots of that early on.

Here is one set of curves showing exactly that.

Ever since I went 100% digital, it's not so simple to do certain things in Room EQ Wizard because there's no way to do a reference loopback. It's a one-way digital chain now.

 

 

The room my Amazings are in is only 11'9" wide where the speakers are placed, 24' long, and the room is L-shaped with an additional 12' x 12' section (also horrible for audio).  Speakers are only toed in about 1.5", the difference measured to the lower corners from the back wall.  They are appx 26" from the back wall and 4" from the side wall at the lower outer corners.  Imaging is not as good as my AL-III's when in a similar location (but further from the side walls) but the overall sound is improved.  I'm not getting very much stereo image from far left and right because the speakers are too close to the side walls and should probably be further from the back wall also.  I can't put them where they should be ideally because of a doorway on the left side and sliding door to the back yard. 

 

Something else to consider is that with the original crossovers; there must be changes in phase to either the ribbons, or the woofers (or more likely both) because of those large coils and caps in the crossover.  

 

I'm astonished that you get decent sound in a similar room.

With a different set of speakers in exactly the same spot as the Amazings, I get an image beyond the sidewalls. 

[UncleMeat 1,173]

Thanks Martin; sorry for not remembering your posts on the thread I had about my Amazings with XO problems. The last couple of months has been a blur with finishing our landscaping project before winter is in full swing here. Since you have the spec'd 60" XO's from Carver with documentation I can't see how they should sound worse than mine running the internal XO's; unless maybe those are mis-labeled units or they are somehow not wired correctly (factory mistakes).

 

Yeah; the AL-III's throw image beyond the walls also, but not so for the Amazings for me either. I've got them tweaked so they make some image to the sides but not room exiting. For me, the improved mid-bass and low-end seems to be worth the sacrifice of stage size.

 

If you'd be interested in sending me your XO's (since they are not being used in your speakers) I'll wire them into mine temporary an tell you if they sound better, or worse than my XO's. At least it would help rule out a problem with your XO's (and help tell me if mine are correct or not).

[martin1970 361]

Martin, is there any way you can post a diagram of your room showing speaker placement, listening position, and any other major elements in the room?

1 square = 1 foot 

 

[PMAT 2,038]

wOw on that room.

[martin1970 361]

Yeah, the only way it could be worse is if:

Front door to the left of the couch.

Wall furnace in back left corner =hotter than the surface of the sun in the back 40 of the living room in the winter.

Oh yeah, and another door behind the right speaker to a screened porch that has no door to the outside.

[RodH 4,866]

Yikes! That's evil.

 

Bass traps an lot's of other acoustic treatments needed.

There's no way for the ALS's to breathe in that set-up, but they would act like bass traps on their own. 

 

 

 

Oh and UncleMeat: just WTF is "winter" in the SF Bay area????