danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It appears I have several issues that need to be addressed in my system. I have 4 amps driving 6 drivers. One of my TFM35's is going to need service. ( and later the other TFM35 also). This amp is buzzing and clicking off on protection mode and back on again cycling with loud audible buzz. So I am going to change the system until I get it repaired. I'm going to drive a pair of ALS originals with a pair of M1.0T's MKII opt 2. one amp for each channel. One amp is non inverting and the other is inverting. On the back is the stereo mode switch. I assume this needs to be selected to mono if I am going to use one amp for left and one amp for right channel application no? and wire it to take full load to each driver no? My M4.0 is driving my woofer section of my Home built dirvers and the other TFM35 is going to be driving the uppers on the same Home built unit. I have a m200 I'm going to be using temporary to drive the JBL's I built. Also, anyone interested in taking on a cap and repair on the TFM 35? The other issue I need to track down is a hum or distortion after units have been on for about 45 mins. when using TT. I disconnected TT and even used a different TT but is still present. Yet if it is selected to a different input selection is quiet. Wondering if something in the pre input on for phono is having an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retriever 1,076 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 After Christmas Ok lol.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Thats ok with me James. Just send me a pm when your ready Brutha.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Sorry to hear about your amp issues Dano. I'm sure James will get them sorted for you. BTW: I don't recommend mixing inverting and non-inverting amps unless you vertically bi-amp. (i.e. one amp supplies power for the high frequencies; the other amp powers the low frequencies) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Sorry to hear about your amp issues Dano. I'm sure James will get them sorted for you. BTW: I don't recommend mixing inverting and non-inverting amps unless you vertically bi-amp. (i.e. one amp supplies power for the high frequencies; the other amp powers the low frequencies) yes I have done vertical bi-amping with them before. In the present config I was looking at doing was one amp for one channel (L) and the other for the other channel ®with only the one individual channel on each amp feeding that lone driver. That way all power would be directed to that single channel on that single driver. I'm not sure as to what the issue would be on separate amps on separate channels. I know you are very savoy on this and I am an old dog student, so just trying to learn new tricks and it sometimes hard to sink in for me brutha thanks for the advice. before I was bi amping with the 35's to the als. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm confused. Are you bi-amping (splitting the highs and lows) or using 2 amps full range with each amp in mono? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm confused. Are you bi-amping (splitting the highs and lows) or using 2 amps full range with each amp in mono? not splitting highs and lows. One amp (amp 1) would deliver to left channel speaker (I forget the term used for this type of amping where when you use one channel only it gets power from the other channel on the amp) and you connect - wire to pos red left and + wire to pos right on that amp) and then on the other amp (2) for right channel speaker with same configuration on that amp [ Just the same as amp 1.] Using driver terminology instead of speaker in other posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm confused. Are you bi-amping (splitting the highs and lows) or using 2 amps full range with each amp in mono? Yes full range mono but one for left speaker and 1 for right speaker. Of course the inputs would be one on left and one on right from the pre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar9Jim 6,182 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 So you would have an inverting amp full range mono on say left speaker and a non-inverting amp full range mono on the right. I think this is what Dom didn't recommend. Phase issue Dom? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 So you would have an inverting amp full range mono on say left speaker and a non-inverting amp full range mono on the right. I think this is what Dom didn't recommend. Phase issue Dom? Thanks Jim, you've got it. I haven't done as yet but would like to know what issue I would run into. Double checked to clarify, I have 3 of the amps, I gave one to my daughter (inverting), and double checked and the two I have are non inverting so that makes it simpler no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar9Jim 6,182 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Yes, I think that will address Doms concern if you use identical amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I'm confused. Are you bi-amping (splitting the highs and lows) or using 2 amps full range with each amp in mono?not splitting highs and lows. One amp (amp 1) would deliver to left channel speaker (I forget the term used for this type of amping where when you use one channel only it gets power from the other channel on the amp) and you connect - wire to pos red left and + wire to pos right on that amp) and then on the other amp (2) for right channel speaker with same configuration on that amp [ Just the same as amp 1.] Using driver terminology instead of speaker in other posts. Carver called it "power steering": Power steering occurs in most amps that have a common ground between the L and R channels. I believe the non-inverting M-1.0t (the one with the stereo/mono switch) has a common ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Double checked to clarify, I have 3 of the amps, I gave one to my daughter (inverting), and double checked and the two I have are non inverting so that makes it simpler no? Assuming they are both MKII's with identical mods, YES! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 I knew you would know DOM ya da man. So, I just need to move switch from stereo to mono on both amps adn good to go? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I knew you would know DOM ya da man. So, I just need to move switch from stereo to mono on both amps adn good to go? Leave the switch in stereo for power steering. Use mono if you need more power (might result in reduced soundstage). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 I knew you would know DOM ya da man. So, I just need to move switch from stereo to mono on both amps adn good to go? Leave the switch in stereo for power steering. Use mono if you need more power (might result in reduced soundstage). [/quote That I didn't know. Thanks for your wisdom, and wire it as shown on the back of the amp - to red and + to red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I knew you would know DOM ya da man. So, I just need to move switch from stereo to mono on both amps adn good to go? Leave the switch in stereo for power steering. Use mono if you need more power (might result in reduced soundstage).That I didn't know. Thanks for your wisdom, and wire it as shown on the back of the amp - to red and + to red. Your last statement about connecting - to red and + to red is for mono operation (stereo/mono switch set to mono). For power steering put the stereo/mono switch in STEREO. Feed the L preout to the L or R amp #1 input and connect the corresponding set of black and red binding posts to the L speaker. Feed the R preout to the L or R amp #2 input and connect the corresponding set of black and red binding posts to the R speaker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4RUNNER 484 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Great read thanks am slowly working towards a second m-1 to do just that. never would have thought of leaving switch in stereo ............ Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man 4,763 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 You get a lot more output power running the amp mono than you will running them in stereo and only using one channel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 You get a lot more output power running the amp mono than you will running them in stereo and only using one channel. Knowing the power consumption of the ALS I guess thats where I got tripped up between power steering and the mono stereo switch. What you think Dom? since I am separating channels with different amps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbini 6,140 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 You get a lot more output power running the amp mono than you will running them in stereo and only using one channel.Knowing the power consumption of the ALS I guess thats where I got tripped up between power steering and the mono stereo switch. What you think Dom? since I am separating channels with different amps? Personally I prefer single-channel mode as mono tends to smear the soundstage and defocus the bass (less punch) but it's easy to reconfigure between the two modes so I suggest you try both and decide for yourself which sounds best. As Brian noted bridged mono results in more power output. How much more? Well, the M-1.5 manual states: When pressed hard either channel is free to borrow up to an additional 150 watts from the other (for a total of 750 watts), so long as the summed output of both channels does not exceed the regulated 1200 watt (power supply) maximum. I assume that's with both channels driven, and there's no mention of what happens in single-channel mode. So, a few years ago while I had Harryfan's DEQ-2496, I compared SPL for single-channel versus mono. With preamp gain set to "comfortably loud" I measured SPL in mono, reconfigured the cables for single channel, and measured again. A-weighted SPL measured about 2 dB higher in bridged mono than in power steering mode.* *Decibel (dB) is a logarithmic scale used to denote a change in the relative strength of an electric signal or acoustic wave. It is a standard unit for expressing the ratio between power and power level. Using the logarithmic relationship for power PdB = 10*log[Pout/Pin], a doubling of electrical power only yields an increase of +3 dB. Increasing the power tenfold will yield an increase of +10 dB and is a doubling of perceived loudness. The decibel is not an absolute measurement, but indicates the relationship or ratio between two signal levels. 0 dB represents the threshold of normal human hearing, 130 dB represents the threshold for pain, 140 dB causes irreparable hearing damage, and 150 dB can cause instant deafness, anything greater than about 192 dB can kill you. Sound dB-SPL Jet engine at 3m 140 Threshold of pain 130 Rock concert 120 Accelerating motorcycle at 5m 110 Pneumatic hammer at 2m 100 Noisy factory 90 Vacuum cleaner 80 Busy traffic 70 Quiet restaurant 50 Residential area at night 40 Empty movie house 30 Rustling of leaves 20 Human breathing (at 3m) 10 Threshold of hearing (good ears) 0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar9Jim 6,182 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Wow. 2 db is a lot of power difference. Sounds like an output increase of 66%. Unless you have an enormous room to fill I'd try it both ways and go for what sounds best to you of course. Should have enough power for hearing loss either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 Thanks for that informative report. I know now what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danowood 2,167 Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 Wow. 2 db is a lot of power difference. Sounds like an output increase of 66%. Unless you have an enormous room to fill I'd try it both ways and go for what sounds best to you of course. Should have enough power for hearing loss either way. Room is 400 Sq'. more importance than loudness is quality. I'm going with normal stereo wiring, if that isn't lound enough will go mono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar9Jim 6,182 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 In that size room you should be able to create a near death experience !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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