"Audio Grade" Caps for Crossover rebuild

[Michael8it 49]

I am rebuilding my Polk RTA 12B crossovers and have noticed TONS of "audio grade" caps for crossovers.  I rebuilt another set several years ago and used Erse Caps because the values matched what I needed and the total cost was just over $100.  I'm looking at doing another pair and there is no shortage of opinions on what caps to use.  The most common suggestion on the Polk forum is Sonicaps, but the tab for those is almost $600 for these crossovers.  

 

I could also do a blend of components using Sonicaps in the tweeter circuit and Erse (or Jantzen) for the rest.  

 

Any opinions on these boutique crossover caps?  Is this just hype?   

 

Thanks, 

[4krow 6,572]

   On one hand, I find this to be a can of worms. Now on the other hand, I do believe in using a quality film capacitor, but not at a $600 price that breaks the bank. I will say that there are small differences that I have heard in the past, mostly in the higher frequencies between caps. When building one set of speakers, I recall using the Sonicaps, but the preference was small comparing them to other caps. Also, I would consider the total sound quality of the speakers, and judge accordingly. I would suppose that using a cheap cap might be where you would notice the most difference between the two. Having said that, it would great to be able compare different caps during the build, the results might surprise you.

[BarryG 2,853]

In doing my sda 1b crossovers, I used Sonicaps in tweeter section, and daytons on the rest! I hope this helps! Sonicaps for the whole project would be crazy expensive!

 

BarryG

[Michael8it 49]

I know this subject can be a can of worms - this is certainly not my intention.  But I am having a hard time believing that $600 caps will give me 6 times the audio quality out of these speakers.  I was happy with the Erse caps on the last build and for budget reason will probably just stick with them.  I may do the sonicaps on the tweeter but that's it.  

 

Thanks for the feedback.  

[UncleMeat 1,173]

I've been working on my Marshall tube amp; I just swapped the coupling capacitors from Sprague Poly blue "Gum Drop" caps over to vintage Sprague "Vitamin Q" Paper-In-Oil.  The overall sound is quite an improvement.  I did also change the capacitance values a bit but that should not account for the amount of change in the overall sound.

 

I'm not sure about the audible differences between different types of poly caps or poly vs. 'lytic, but in my case going from Poly to PIO did make quite an improvement in the sound.  My Wife noticed it also and her comment was "wow the volume is turned up but it does not sound 'loud' it just fills the room with more music".  Which was exactly what I was noticing also in addition to other improvements.

[Belvedere2 232]

Solen caps in my AR-90s and Infinities. I don't intend to sell or ever have to do them again....in my lifetime.

[PDR 1,194]

I've put together a few crossovers in speakers I've built from

American designers....GR Research, and Selah Audio

 

The GR stuff comes with Erse, Sonicap caps and Mills resisters.

The Selah stuff came with Clarity caps and Mills resistors 

 

I've built 2 arrays and a center from Selah, and 2 OB set ups from GR.

They were pushing a wax filled Jupiter cap for my second GR build...I

bought it just so I didnt have to think about it again.....they were $200 extra.

Do I think its worth it? no.....

 

I've had a local guy buy the parts I need for the Trio PAP passive x-over.

He talked me into Mundorf and Solen. 

Heres a list of components......I thought it was resonable.

Keep in mind these are Canadian dollars, take about 25% off for US

Should have them here in a few days

 

 

33uf Mundorf MCap 250v - $23.50 x 2
0.33uf Mundorf MCap 630v - $5.00 x 2 (bypass)

100uf Mundorf ECap RAW 100v - $3.57 x 2

3.9mH Solen 12awg Litz wire - $89.10 x 2 (air core)
3.3mH Solen 18awg solid core wire - $15.95 x 2 (air core)

2.7 ohm Mundorf MResist 20w - $17.40 x 2
2.7 ohm Mundorf R25 ceramic 25w - $2.80 x 2
33 ohm Mundorf R25 ceramic 25w - $2.80 x 2

subtotal $320.24

less 15% $48.04

+ shipping $15.00

subtotal $287.20

+ GST $14.36

Total $301.56

 

 

 

[4krow 6,572]

   I think that these are all good responses, given the different environments that they are used. In one case, it would make little sense to overspend on a crossover for an average speaker. On the other end of the scale, perhaps a more demanding application with great speakers (and crossover), great system, and great ears will give better results. As always, you cannot over emphasize the value getting the sound we really want, no matter the path we chose to get there. I am only relaying this because of the years of past experience building speakers at higher cost levels and not really being satisfied. Finally, I arrived with an OB design that I wish were found years ago. Pretty cool journey, in spite of, or because of parts chosen.

[Belvedere2 232]

 

 

   I think that these are all good responses, given the different environments that they are used. In one case, it would make little sense to overspend on a crossover for an average speaker. On the other end of the scale, perhaps a more demanding application with great speakers (and crossover), great system, and great ears will give better results. As always, you cannot over emphasize the value getting the sound we really want, no matter the path we chose to get there. I am only relaying this because of the years of past experience building speakers at higher cost levels and not really being satisfied. Finally, I arrived with an OB design that I wish were found years ago. Pretty cool journey, in spite of, or because of parts chosen.

This is basically the idea I used. Find speakers you love and intend to keep. Then do whatever you want or need to do to keep em. I've already picked up a few extra drivers for the ARs.

[Ar9Jim 6,512]

Used Dayton 1% tolerance in  AR90s and Solens in AR9s.. They seem about the same.. Used the 1% tolerance to achieve a closer match between L and R speakers. It is said that cap matching is a benefit to imaging. Use quality parts from a trusted source to avoid fake junk.. Anything with such a huge price spread is likely to be counterfeited.. Like most things you reach a point of diminishing returns.. A point the cost increases a lot, and gains are difficult to identify.. Different construction can sound different like Russ (Uncle meat) mentioned.. I have some similar tube amps. One has poly caps and another has Jupiter Vintage tone caps.. There is a difference but which one is better would be a matter of personal taste imho..

[UncleMeat 1,173]

Jim- Jupiter Vintage Tone caps are not PIO capacitors. They are poly/aluminum foil. By the description on Jupiter's website the sound of their Vintage Tone model would be more similar to the Sprague Blue caps that I pulled than the Sprague Vitamin Q's I replaced them with.

 

http://jupitercondenser.com/product/handmade-vintage-guitar-tone-capacitor/

 

[Ar9Jim 6,512]

 

 

Jim- Jupiter Vintage Tone caps are not PIO capacitors. They are poly/aluminum foil. By the description on Jupiter's website the sound of their Vintage Tone model would be more similar to the Sprague Blue caps that I pulled than the Sprague Vitamin Q's I replaced them with.

 

http://jupitercondenser.com/product/handmade-vintage-guitar-tone-capacitor/

 

Thanks for the info. Russ.. Wasn't sure of their construction but they do sound different from the standard Illinois film caps I use, so I felt sure they were different in construction but wasn't sure of the type.. Do you notice one being better than the other or just a bit different flavor? Electrically they do the same job and many engineers say a cap is a cap regardless... I hear a difference but can't really say one is better or worse than the other, just different flavor so to speak.

[BillWojo 542]

Look on Ebay for the Russian PIO's, they are fairly cheap if you can stand the wait.

 I'm building a set of Altec Model 19 crossovers for my HeathKit AS101's (Altec Valencias in much nicer cabinets) using Solens caps but I'm building them on turret boards so I can swap other caps in and out fairly easily. I have a complete set of vintage oil filled caps (large metal canisters filled with PCB oil) to experiment with, they are said to sound excellent. 

Turret boards will use studs so I can crimp connectors that are cold welded to the components or wires for very good electrical connections. Brass studs and brass nuts to tighten and secure all mounted to 1/8 red fiberglass board.

Gives me lots to play with when mounted externally. 

 

BillWojo

[UncleMeat 1,173]

 

 

 

Jim- Jupiter Vintage Tone caps are not PIO capacitors. They are poly/aluminum foil. By the description on Jupiter's website the sound of their Vintage Tone model would be more similar to the Sprague Blue caps that I pulled than the Sprague Vitamin Q's I replaced them with.

 

http://jupitercondenser.com/product/handmade-vintage-guitar-tone-capacitor/

 

Thanks for the info. Russ.. Wasn't sure of their construction but they do sound different from the standard Illinois film caps I use, so I felt sure they were different in construction but wasn't sure of the type.. Do you notice one being better than the other or just a bit different flavor? Electrically they do the same job and many engineers say a cap is a cap regardless... I hear a difference but can't really say one is better or worse than the other, just different flavor so to speak.

 

To answer your question; IMHO there is a big difference between the sound of a Mylar, Poly, or PIO cap as coupling caps in a tube amp.  I know this is a bit OT from the original post about caps in the XO's but if I'm hearing it at the coupling capacitors in my tube amp, then possible there will be some difference on the speaker XO also.

 

How I noticed the sound change is because I was re-capping the Marshall and put in Mylar caps not knowing they were of lesser audio quality than the original Poly Sprague caps.  When I played the amp it sounded very harsh and dry.  Wasn't sure what I had done wrong so I soldered the old caps back in (luckily there was still enough metal on the leads).  The sound went back to the way it was originally; better overall tone and the highs were not just a bunch of hiss noises. 

 

Intrigued by this I decided to give NOS Sprague PIO caps a try.  I suggest getting metal can PIO caps; my first attempt using Cornell Dubilier "CUB" (recycled) was a failure; they leaked DC badly.  The metal can caps have glass ends and are hermetically sealed so less chance of absorbing moisture.  The improvement in overall sound I got from the PIO caps was enough to make me wonder how there could be such a large difference with such a minor component change.  It was like rolling in a better set of tubes; and I already had gone through several sets to find what I thought was 'best'.  I'm getting more top-end sparkle, and clearer midrange vocals.  The image has gone from a 2-D plane to a 3-D room filling sound; the sound seemingly does not come from the speakers it just jumps out from different locations in the space of the room.

[4krow 6,572]

   There are those that say caps must also be broken in for best sound. I have noticed that many caps sound brightest when first installed, the settle a bit in the highs only after a few hours.

 

  About 2 years ago, I bought an amp with PIO caps, sorry don't remember the brand, and have to say that indeed it was the clearest sound ever for me....until I had the transformers changed out to a specialty type. Here we go again, the amp is almost too clear for me now. If it is not one thing it is another. Find the combo that suits you best is the message here.

[UncleMeat 1,173]

The increase in clarity was unexpected; I thought adding "tone" with these PIO's would make the sound go toward being muddy. I can see how going too far in the direction of 'clear' would also be dis-satisfying also. All of this with regard to PIO caps makes me wonder what the sound differences were (when vintage amps were being constructed) among brands of the old (new back then) PIO, or wax impregnated caps. Do the caps owe as much to the sound of a certain amp like a Scott, or Marantz as the circuit design, transformers, & tubes?