AL Silver internal troubleshooting pics

[aslan7 955]

Every so often I blow the factory fuse for my left side AL Silver when listening to them quite loudly. Purchased in 1990 and redone around 2003.

I'm currently running an A500x mono bridged to the left as well as another one to the right speaker. Switched amps and problem still persists occasionally on that left speaker.

I had some time today to disassemble the back and check out the guts. All looks normal but I took pics to post since the experts may see something out of wack. It's not a big deal and only happens when I drive them hard but I am a perfectionist with my equipment. Just don't know why the left side speaker fuse blows and the right does not.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated since my Financial Planning degree does not do much good in troubleshooting electronics.

Thank you tech's!

[PMAT 2,054]

What are the chances that we both open our Silvers today and take pics and post at the same time??

My crossovers are way different.

[aslan7 955]

 

 

What are the chances that we both open our Silvers today and take pics and post at the same time??

My crossovers are way different.

 

 

Now we posted on each other's thread at the same time Paul.  Man you and I are in synch brutha!

 

I did notice the difference.  Interesting. 

[RodH 4,866]

There were many versions of X-overs for the Silvers. Mine are different again, but much closer to PMAT's.

 

What does the label on the back of the Speaker say? If it;s even still there . . . . should be down low by the binding posts. 

[aslan7 955]

 

 

There were many versions of X-overs for the Silvers. Mine are different again, but much closer to PMAT's.

 

What does the label on the back of the Speaker say? If it;s even still there . . . . should be down low by the binding posts. 

 

Thanks Rod.  Unfortunately no label on either speaker that I can see. 

 

 

 

[RodH 4,866]

Take a look at where the enameled wires cross over each other or over bare wires. Is there a spot where 2 might touch & short with vibration?

[fill35U 1,847]

Take a look at where the enameled wires cross over each other or over bare wires. Is there a spot where 2 might touch & short with vibration?

 

Those Silvers XO's are a mess of spaghetti! Maybe start looking hard in this area:

 

 

 

Rearrange all the wires, until there's at least 1/2" between each one. Then play loud and see if the fuse still blows.

 

You might have to do actual troubleshooting if that doesn't work. Run the ribbons and tweeteers each alone, then focus on which section still blows the fuse.

 

And I guess today is a good day to start a thread on my Silvers, too!  

[aslan7 955]

Man you read my mind Rod and Phil! I was typing my question when Rod's post and your pic just came in Phil.

I'll check it out.

Have to look tomorrow as I just got called for a mission out at the base.

Thank you though!!!

[aslan7 955]

Btw

What is the purpose of just those bare copper wires?

 

Is there a Crossover 101 explanation for that pic of wires?

[zumbini 6,153]

What is the purpose of just those bare copper wires?

They are not bare, they are coated with enamel which acts as insulation.

 

Note: It's best if the coil wires don't touch each other or anything hard or sharp so vibration doesn't wear the coating off and cause a short.

[aslan7 955]

 

 

 

What is the purpose of just those bare copper wires?

They are not bare, they are coated with enamel which acts as insulation.

Note: It's best if the coil wires don't touch each other or anything hard or sharp so vibration doesn't wear the coating off and cause a short.

 

 

Wow. Did not know they were coated.

 

With how meticulous Carver products seem to be on the inside, I'm surprised those wires are all over the place.

I'm going to try and make sure they stay separated from each other and a little more organized.

 

Thanks Z!

[zumbini 6,153]

....With how meticulous Carver products seem to be on the inside, I'm surprised those wires are all over the place.
I'm going to try and make sure they stay separated from each other and a little more organized....

 

Neatness counts visually but messy wiring rarely affects the performance of the crossover.

OTOH inductors can interact with each other electrically so their location and orientation is important.

To avoid this place the inductors on opposite sides of the board and orient them at 90^o angles relative to each other. 

 

 

[danowood 2,167]

I like to add shrink tubing to areas that can possibly make contact with other wires or metal caps in the event of the enamel coating being breached.  While I had it apart I would either upgrade or replace the caps IMO.

[fill35U 1,847]

 

 

 

 

 

With #7, make sure the coil centerlines are perfectly aligned and will stay there. If they're offset by a fraction of an inch, you could give up 20-30dB of isolation.  

 

Also keep the coils away from other metal, especially ferrous (screws, baskets, magnets, fuses). No point in wasting power and causing distortion by using your amp as an induction heater... 

 

None of the above should be an issue with inductors that have closed-path cores, but then you have to be sure they're big enough/gapped right/use good enough materials that they don't saturate. 

 

[aslan7 955]

 

 

 

....With how meticulous Carver products seem to be on the inside, I'm surprised those wires are all over the place.

I'm going to try and make sure they stay separated from each other and a little more organized....

 

Neatness counts visually but messy wiring rarely affects the performance of the crossover.

OTOH inductors can interact with each other electrically so their location and orientation is important.

To avoid this place the inductors on opposite sides of the board and orient them at 90^o angles relative to each other. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well when I look at my pictures, it appears to me like my coils are situated at the #3 postition in your picture Z--ie BAD.  They are covered with what looks to be a hot glue type of substance so I do not think they are interacting with each other negatively. 

 

In any event, I did tidy some wiring up as per Rod's post making sure the copper wires were all about 1/2" from each other.  Closed everything up and tested.

 

Linkin Park's "Somewhere I belong" was played at ear splitting levels and the fuse passed the test as well as Rush's "Red Barchetta".  

 

Unfortunately about 3/4 the way thru Bohemian Rhapsody the slo-blo 3.2a fuse blew.  .  Replaced it and all is well for now--until I want to wake the neighbors. 

 

Thank you all for your suggestions.  Just have to watch the volume level for now. 

 

 

 

 

[weitrhino 1,444]

 

 

Unfortunately about 3/4 the way thru Bohemian Rhapsody the slo-blo 3.2a fuse blew.

 

 

Bismilah!

 

No! We will not let you blow!

[aslan7 955]

Unfortunately about 3/4 the way thru Bohemian Rhapsody the slo-blo 3.2a fuse blew.  

Bismilah!

No! We will not let you blow!

 

Lol

Thanks WrnO.

 

Although I prefer YHWH  

 

 

[UncleMeat 1,174]

Per the A-500x specs:

800 WPC bridged mono into 8 Ohms

 

With the Silvers you are probably over 1000 WPC because they are less than 8 Ohm speakers. The values on the resistors in the XO are +\- 10% so some variability in them can mean a bit higher impedance in one speaker relative to the other. The level you are pushing those speakers at are high enough for both fuses to be close to blowing, but one speaker is getting slightly more current than the other so it will always blow first.

 

The difference between Paul's XO and yours Jack is that Paul's XO'S don't have the internal notch filters and require the external ECS box that has the active notch filters on the PCB (its not the universal "ECS-U" version).

[aslan7 955]

Per the A-500x specs:
800 WPC bridged mono into 8 Ohms

With the Silvers you are probably over 1000 WPC because they are less than 8 Ohm speakers. The values on the resistors in the XO are +\- 10% so some variability in them can mean a bit higher impedance in one speaker relative to the other. The level you are pushing those speakers at are high enough for both fuses to be close to blowing, but one speaker is getting slightly more current than the other so it will always blow first.

The difference between Paul's XO and yours Jack is that Paul's XO'S don't have the internal notch filters and require the external ECS box that has the active notch filters on the PCB (its not the universal "ECS-U" version).

 

So even if the specs say theses are 8 ohm speakers, they may be pushing closer to 6?..

That might explain it UM.  Thank you.

 

So then what if I wanted even more volume (not that I do)?

 Let's say someone bought these AL's and had a gigantic room to fill with sound.  What next?  Plats?  More efficient speakers?  Klipsch horns?

 

[UncleMeat 1,174]

They are either less than 8 nominal or have a dip at a certain low frequency that's drawing more current. The ribbons have a flat impedance but the woofers should have a low frequency dip like most do.

 

The overall sensitivity of the AL's is only about 85dB, it's because the ribbons are somewhat inefficient despite the rare earth magnets. They were never really designed to be "party barn" speakers (J/K on that reference!!), but audiophile grade at a reasonable price, like all Carver components aside from the high dollar tube amps. In today's market you probably can't replace them with anything new for less than the price of Bob's new ALS, and those are around 20k plus subwoofers.

[RodH 4,866]

I thought he was blowing a speaker fuse not taxing the amp....

[aslan7 955]

I thought he was blowing a speaker fuse not taxing the amp....

 

Help me out here Rod.  

 

If my Silvers are rated at 600 watts, 8 ohms--occasionally dipping to 6 ohms when pushed hard:

 

Will the speaker fuse blow when paired with a bridged mono config 800 watt @ 8 ohm amp?

 

Or

 

Will the speaker fuse blow because the amp has issues keeping up when pushed in that config when the speaker drops to 6 ohms?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RodH 4,866]

Let's check the facts here. One of two speakers blows a fuse. Amp is fine, not going into protection or emitting magic smoke. Seems like a speaker related issue to me.

 

But I've been wrong before a time or six hundred. 

 

[aslan7 955]

Let's check the facts here. One of two speakers blows a fuse. Amp is fine, not going into protection or emitting magic smoke. Seems like a speaker related issue to me.

But I've been wrong before a time or six hundred.

Correct.

Switched amps.

Same issue when pushed very hard--left AL silver fuse eventually blows. Amps seem fine--slightly warm after hard playing.

Maybe time to upgrade speakers.

Suggestions:

[aslan7 955]

FWIW

I don't think AL woofer bass demand is causing a blown fuse as I checked the wiring carefully.

In addition, the majority of bass is handled by the SVS PB-13 Ultra and Velodyne SPL 1200R subs.

 

It's a conundrum I say.