Open Baffle speakers

[Bean 384]

So to keep this post short, I will say the following: Over thanksgiving I had the opportunity to go listen to Mark's Open Baffle speaker setup.  It consists of 3 8" Tang Bang Full Range Drivers per speaker running full range without a crossover.  He also had 4 10" Goldwin sub drivers crossed over at 65hz.  All these were purchased from Parts Express.

 

The total cost for his open baffle system is a bit out of my reach to say the least (each 8" driver was 210 and each 10" was 15) lol.... But I cant get how it sounded out of my head.  It was one of the most AWESOME sounds ever and I have been somewhat searching for how to get that sound in my home office ever since.

 

So I have been looking at trying out some Open Baffle stuff in my office.  I was talking PDR and he steered me toward some Open Baffle speaker designed by Dannie Ritchie (formerly of AV123 now with GR Research).  These speakers were originally marketed under the now defunct AV123 brand but are still availible as a kit with just the drivers and crossovers you build the cabinets from plans.

 

As I have relatives who happen to be carpenters so I am sure I could have them build them for me out of whatever material I want/need as well as finish them for me.

 

The kit runs 379 for a pair plus shipping.  More info here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90911.0. 

 

Given the spec's you still need some sort of sub in the mix as the speakers only go down to 65 hz, but overall they look like they could be good.

 

I am looking to know if anyone has seen/heard these, if so what impressions they have of them, and/or if they know of a kit or DIY suggestion around the same price.

 

Mark and I have gone over some other driver options that are cheaper than the TangBang's and I still may end up going that route, but these speakers just look to be pretty good at what they do (from all the reviews I have read) and are a MUCH smaller footprint than what I would be looking at if I was using 8" drivers.

 

I already thought about having a guy from another forum build the crossovers for me either using the parts he has access to, or possibly the parts that come with the kit, but I havent nailed down any kind of pricing.

 

So thoughts/suggestions/things to consider would be appreciated. 

 

-------Original Post Break------Begin Aside------------

 

As an aside Mark and I have gone over just about all the full range drivers on Parts Express website and the ones we somewhat narrowed things down to on spec's and cost per driver were the 5" Tang Band W5-1611SAF , the 3" Peerless 830986 Full Range Woofer, and the 8" Visaton 3020 BG20.

 

We were looking for full range drivers that can dig below 65 hz decently, realizing I would still need to augment just about all of these with a sub, and at minimum use 4 drivers per side (with the 3" drivers I would need to use TONS to get a good cone surface) and use increments of 2 so as to wire them in parallel. 

 

We didnt want to have to use a tweeter at all and I wanted originally to avoid using a crossover at all, but the X-Statix looks intriguing so I wanted to take a deeper look at it, especially given that it was recommended to me by another member that has a ridiculous OB setup himself (that I could never afford however).

 

For those interested in how Marks setup looks, I stole this pic of Marks setup from a Carverfest thread elsewhere.  I hope he's ok with me showing off his work

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4krow 7,165]

I was surprised as you when I heard my first OB speakers. BIG sound, wide soundstage, and more bass than I was told. That led me to explore, just like you. I came to building an OB design sold by Decware. It's called the ZOB(Zen Open Baffle). Now, while it is out of the price range that you had mentioned, The cabinets could be built rather cheaply if you were to find solid materials. Paint can cover a multitude of sins. Having said that, you also wouldn't be required to use the drivers that Decware sells. That is what I have, but I also tried Audio Nirvana drivers, that were amazing at half the price. Fortunately, there is a mountain of available drivers for just such an experiment.

[kingman 663]

Good luck with your quest! I've heard Marks' setup and it is phenominal! Hope he brings it back to Carverfest next year.

[PDR 1,194]

Good solid bass has always been a goal when using OB set up.

My Super V with the servos play flat to 20hz.....yeah I know flame away,

but its true. I dont defend it anymore, its on the net to be found, and when

people hear them thats when they believe.....but they are expensive.

Look at the Orions, same idea to a degree, but way out of my price range and

thats before the 8ch of amplification required. 

 

I also understand why your looking for a full range, kind of the same reason

the coax was so appealing to me.

When Danny first came out with the pro coax driver people looked at him side ways,

I was one of them. But really with all the good press, and the reception of them at the

last 3 RMAF shows, they have garnered a following with hundreds of sets around the world.

There are 5 pair here in Alberta, and 5 pair of V1s as well.....only 3 million people in the whole province.

You need a good x-over designer to mate the coax.

Danny just hasnt designed for AV123...... He has designed many x-overs for

a lot of good speaker companies.....Carnegie, Usher, Tyler acoustics and many more.

Hes also the deisigner of the LS-9 and LS-6 line arrays.

These were all reasons I choose his products

But yep, the high end stuff is pricey.

 

I've never heard the X-statiks, but they have good reviews, I dont think theyre going to sound

anywhere near the excellence of Marcs sytem. You would have to spend more....

I just want to be sure if you decide on them and they disappoint, that the $379 cost is taken

into consideration. Hate giving promotion to people for this reason.

 

My advice to you would be.....save.

I've built many speakers, it wasnt till I spent over a couple $K

on a kit that I realized I have a product that I would never of been able to afford other wise.

On the other hand.....$500 for a working OB.....well, decent bookshelves cant be bought for that.

And they might bring hrs of enjoyment for you while you save for the dream speakers.

I just dont want you to hate me f you dont like them.....

 

Perry 

[mbskeam 1,989]

I agree, Marks speakers sound very nice, one of the better sounding rigs at CF last year.

I would liked to have heard them with a bit more power, I'm sure they would have sounded just as nice,

just a bit more top end for me....

I'm a power freak ya know.....

[4krow 7,165]

Coax speakers. Now that would be great to hear. I have never heard any before.

[Radioeng2 33]

Crap Mike...we had ten watts on tap!  Whatta want?  And that was 10 for each channel!

 

No problem using the pictures of course Dan!  Glad you liked OB enough to think about it. 

 

But I do wish it wasn't  a unfinished build that I had to take and winds up here!  I've been almost continually building some version of OB now for 4 or 5 years I think.  And I still am!

 

The OB thing has really worked for me.  I'd gone from years of 'stats and locked into high power to wanting to play with more tubes and lots of speaker designs otherwise.  Where my travels led was right back to a couple of the strong attributes from the electrostatics.  Phase conherance.  Line source. Dipole pattern.  Boxless sound.  But what I've also picked up is the efficiency to tun about any power I want.  And much greater dynamics! 

 

 Had a friend who's working on a really cool "box" speaker try one of those coax a few weeks ago.  The 10" model.  The efficiency dropped so much we thought it wasn't working for a minute when we first hooked it up.  Then it didn't measure anything close to it's spec's.  The resonance was a lot above spec.  Then when inserted into the speaker it just didn't sound right.  I'd thought about buying one of the version of it myself in the past and was really looking forward to hearing it.  Looked very nice.  But the performance was unsettling.  And the company couldn't/wouldn't explain the crossover at all.  I believe after the measuring and listening, that those went back and he's going a different direction.

 

Oh..and the amp choice running the short full-range lines is about using a true current source amp instead of a voltage amp.  It doesn't really care about the ohm load and runs a full range driver very spectacularly!  Works differently with the low end and the high end both.

 

Mark

 

 

[jazzman53 1,280]

I too was blown away by Mark's OB's at CarverFest last year.  I closed my eyes and those speakers disappeared... only the music remained. What a pleasure       

[PDR 1,194]

 

 

  

 Had a friend who's working on a really cool "box" speaker try one of those coax a few weeks ago.  The 10" model.  The efficiency dropped so much we thought it wasn't working for a minute when we first hooked it up.  Then it didn't measure anything close to it's spec's.  The resonance was a lot above spec.  Then when inserted into the speaker it just didn't sound right.  I'd thought about buying one of the version of it myself in the past and was really looking forward to hearing it.  Looked very nice.  But the performance was unsettling.  And the company couldn't/wouldn't explain the crossover at all.  I believe after the measuring and listening, that those went back and he's going a different direction.

 

 

Yep, theyve been putting those things into boxes for years.......meh, not my cuppa.

Trying to figure out who puts out a 10" PAudio with a x-over out for sale....?

Any hints?    The 10" were tested but not used in GR designs.....more or less same reasons as above.

 

I run mine with a 15w amp,.Had a 6w that performed well...lots of spl, not really refined.

The servo subs are powered with SS 370w per side.....tubes only on top 

[Bean 384]

I also understand why your looking for a full range, kind of the same reason the coax was so appealing to me.

 

When Danny first came out with the pro coax driver people looked at him side ways, I was one of them. But really with all the good press, and the reception of them at the last 3 RMAF shows, they have garnered a following with hundreds of sets around the world.

 

There are 5 pair here in Alberta, and 5 pair of V1s as well.....only 3 million people in the whole province. You need a good x-over designer to mate the coax.

 

Danny just hasnt designed for AV123...... He has designed many x-overs for a lot of good speaker  companies..... Carnegie, Usher, Tyler acoustics and many more.

 

Hes also the deisigner of the LS-9 and LS-6 line arrays. These were all reasons I choose his products.  But yep, the high end stuff is pricey.

 

I've never heard the X-statiks, but they have good reviews, I dont think theyre going to sound anywhere near the excellence of Marcs sytem. You would have to spend more....

 

I just want to be sure if you decide on them and they disappoint, that the $379 cost is taken into consideration. Hate giving promotion to people for this reason.

 

Oh trust me I have no illusions the X-Statix will sound as good as over 1.5k worth of driver alone not counting the amps and gear behind it. 

 

I have a MUCH smaller room than Marks though (a horrible 10x11), so overall width is a pretty big deal for me, which is why I think these might be nice.  They wont tie up as much of the overall room, I realize they still need to be out from the wall and that might be a deal breaker on them since I normally listen while on my computer, but we are re-doing my office after the baby comes so we will see how it ends up being organized.  I have a couple ideas...

 

I am more curious as to how they would sound compared to say my LSi 15's in my main system as my wife is a BIG fan of the cherry wood on the LSi 15's and the X-Statics would have TONS more space downstairs, however I just sold my HT sub so I would need to toss together something to fill in what the LSi 15's can right now...

 

 

 

On the other hand.....$500 for a working OB.....well, decent bookshelves cant be bought for that. And they might bring hrs of enjoyment for you while you save for the dream speakers.

 

Thats kinda where my thoughts go as well, 500 total isnt a massive investment for something that could very well be made into a "statement" piece for my office, while I wait for us to get a house which hopefully will give me either a nice big basement to play in, or at least a bigger office....

 

Or they could possibly end up replacing my Polk LSi's which are somewhat harder to drive and require a dedicated amp, whereas these would open me up to being able to move back to maybe getting a big hoss of an AVR like the Pio SC-67 and be done with it which saves me on IC's...

 

I just dont want you to hate me if you dont like them.....

 

 

LOL, trust me there would be no hate there....

 

 

[Bean 384]

 

 

No problem using the pictures of course Dan!  Glad you liked OB enough to think about it. 

 

 

Well I think you summed it up best.  For those wanting to play with tubes, you pay a premium per watt that is much higher than SS amps.  So its a big deal to mate a tube amp with a good efficient speaker so you can make the most of those few watts you have.

 

And since I want to play with tubes and am not a fan of horns, OB looks like a good way to go for me.

 

 

 

But I do wish it wasn't  a unfinished build that I had to take and winds up here!  I've been almost continually building some version of OB now for 4 or 5 years I think.  And I still am!

Well when you want to move on from that setup, let me know .  It would be worth the 8 hour roadtrip to purchase and transport back here lol....

 

I know your playing with a bigger bass setup, so let me know if your wanting to sell the 2 sub towers you have... I bet they would mate pretty good with 125 watts from my Carver 705x and my LSi 15's . 

 

Would love your thoughts on mating OB bass with box speakers...

 

[4krow 7,165]

Anyone looked at what Audio Nirvana has to offer in coax speakers?

[Radioeng2 33]

Dan....If you think that the 4-Ten's are what you want, I would help you out with a deal.  We can talk about that on email.   I'm equipped to cut holes and am glad to help out those that can't, when it's practical to do so.  That's pretty much what we're talking about here.  I'm using them as of now and would probably have to build something again.  But if they fit what you want to do, then I'd be glad to help out!  And it'd be cool to have you in again if that worked out!

 

The Audio Nirvana coax are newer and I've not bumped into any of the coax yet.  I've got a pair of their 12's and friend has a pair of 10's.  For what I've been doing, most of their line isn't exactly in line with what I need, as their Q is typically lower that what I'm looking for.

 

Mark

[Radioeng2 33]

These were a pair of OB's I made several years ago that I've loaded the Audio Nirvana in.  These were my version of the JE Labs OB design.  Instead of back supports, I took the same distance and added it to the width.  Then I folded back at different angles each side and varied their width too.  But the total wrap around distance is pretty much the same distance as the JE Lab's.  I made too speaker cut out sizes so I could do a woofer and a HF driver.  Each cutout area is made in such a way that I can quick change the insert for a different driver.  Kind of similar to a camera quick change mount.  Here is a set of the discs that I made where can kind of see the cut profile to make that possible.

 

 

And then here is a later version of an insertable driver mount.  Made in a smaller driver version, only capable of swallowing an 8" in the larger insert position....I've got Dayton Audio 6.5" drivers in those right now instead of the shown TB 1772.  The sectional foldback part was just to see if I could do it and to get a gentle edge profile for the highs.  No HF driver needed for mating with the TB's.

 

 

 

When you start hearing all the attributes of OB...you just can't stop coming up with ideas and things to try....

 

....and the wood flies!!

 

 Mark

[4krow 7,165]

OB SPEAKER

[4krow 7,165]

Finally! Not the best file, but at least it worked. Now this is the OB speaker that I was referring to. The design is from Decware, and uses a cavity to produce bass. It is tuned to about 40hz, but the is adjusted to cover a wider range. As an experimentor, This next photo is using the baffle upside down, using the cavity actively. In that application, An Audio Nirvana 8" cast frame, Alnico magnet driver was used.