Infinity 9 Kappa Placement and Zero Soundstage Problem

[Greg Viggiano 89]

Over the weekend, I was lucky enough to find a beautiful pair of Infinity 9 Kappas.

Cosmetically, they are about a 9.5 with very good polydomes and four new woofer surrounds.

 

I was hoping to get some Carver site community advice on how to improve the poor sound stage and almost complete lack of imaging. I have them placed as shown in the pictures below. Bi-amping with a 200 watt Soundstream and 100 watt TFM-15CB did not help. The cables are Audioquest Indigos.

 

At this point, I am wondering if upgrading the capacitors on the crossovers would be a good solution - or greatly increasing the power amp(s).

[kve777 6,888]

I found this in a HIFI Review article:

 

 The Infinity 9 Kappa is relatively easy to place. Although it is definitely a "big speaker," it still is small enough to fit into most real-world listening rooms. It does benefit from every inch of space you can give it, relative to rear and side walls, but it performs well at distances as short as 3 feet from a room boundary. While bass performance is sensitive to placement relative to corners and the rear wall, the 9 Kappa was much easier to place than any true dipole speaker I've encountered, and relatively small adjustments in position were usually adequate to smooth the sound of the bass.

The imaging is broad and smooth in a wide range of listening areas, particularly if the speaker is parallel to a smooth rear wall surface or just slightly angled so that each speaker is aimed at a point about 2 feet behind the listening position. You can easily use a wide couch or several chairs at the listening position and still get an excellent sound stage, and the sound stage will remain acceptable over an even wider area. The driver configuration is also well chosen; the drivers are high enough to overcome the effects from most furniture and floor surfaces, and they provide a good vertical image without the need for major floor-surface treatment.

 

It looks like you have them too angled and too far apart. 6-8 feet apart is OK. Try for 3 ft. from outer and back walls and pointing straight back, then toe them in slightly,  "Don't cross the beams!"

 

To be more accurate, I need to know the dimensions of the room and where your listening spot is, dimensionally. Are you using Sonic Holography? That might change things. 

[loner_t 2,568]

Greg's 6.1s provide pretty good imaging when I listened to them. My recommendation was to supplant the 6.1s with the K9s and see how it behaves. 

 

Greg... the pictures do not do justice. They look very nice.  

[Greg Viggiano 89]

Thanks Kevin and LT-

 

Re-positioning and re-angling the 9 kappas with 10-12 feet of separation did not provide a lot of improvement over the sound stage coming from my re-capped Infinity Kappa 6.1 - the acoustics from the 9s are beautiful . . . but, no improvement with the sound stage. A-B testing with easy system 1 / system 2 switching reveal a major difference in the possible sound stage.

 

I have the signal processing zeroed-out with no holography. Having said that, running them together (system 1 + system 2) doesn't sound too bad.

The room dimensions are about 20 x17 with an 8 foot ceiling. I don't have space to allow extra room behind the 9s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kve777 6,888]

10' might be too far... Start with them only 6' apart. Very slightly toed in. Like only a 1/2 inch. You need Speaker Tractors. I came up with the idea of remote controlled, omni-directional, motorized platforms, for speaker placement. I don't know of any in existence, though.

[kve777 6,888]

Get anywhere? I know I had to get mine up pretty loud to get good imaging. Might that be your issue?

[Belvedere2 232]

Probably too far apart. Start at 4ft apart and slowly like in 1in increments move them apart. The image should pop into the center. I use one of the Bob Seger Greatest Hits to center the soundstage. His voice ends up directly in the center. Other CDs tend to have a left or right bias so I set with that one. Need some space behind them. I have 3 to 4 ft with my RS-1s. Others can chime in on the amps you are using. I use Thresholds on mine. Still need to give them some volume to get the sound right. Good luck

[Shootr 13]

I came up with the idea of remote controlled, omni-directional, motorized platforms, for speaker placement.

 

Not a bad idea. Actually some of the RC vehicles they have these days might be capable of moving smaller speakers around. But then you have the problem of having the speakers off the floor on a RC vehicle which I doubt anyone is going to want as a permanent solution. Since the best way to determine speaker placement is trial and error it might help to move the speakers around like that but in the end it's going to take more tweaking after you get the speakers off whatever you have to move them. A different idea though.

 

Again nothing really can replace trial and error to get speaker placement right. There are certainly guidelines to go by. For example I've used the equilateral triangle as the starting point for my speaker setup for a long time. Have your speakers the same distance apart as it is from you to each speaker. For a lot of speakers that's the ideal spot for imaging. Not all of course. But it's a good place to start. You don't want to be too close to a wall or in a corner. Sometimes there is no avoiding such things though. So my thinking has been to use enough power to drive the sound the way I want it and sculpt the sound with an EQ to compensate for really bad resonances out of a corner for example. Being coupled with the floor is something a lot of speakers don't do well at. And then of course there's that old bugaboo, the standing wave. AGain only trial and error can tell you if your sound is being lost to a standing wave. You can usually hear those waves if you're ear is where they are traveling. It's just something you learn to listen for with practice. Unless you're running 500 wpc you will be losing a lot of sound that you need with a standing wave. With enough power you can just create more sound to replace that sound though. That's been my experience. It's best not to have a standing wave but if your room is small you may not have a choice.

[Greg Viggiano 89]

Adjusting the speaker placement is difficult because of where the rest of the system and TV are located. The room is also small (20x17) for the speaker size - so I plan to test with different power levels (thanks LT) this afternoon.

[weitrhino 1,443]

 

 

Unless you're running 500 wpc you will be losing a lot of sound that you need with a standing wave. With enough power you can just create more sound to replace that sound though.

 

I need some real help with this as it seems antithetical to any notion I have on creating a clean acoustic environment.

[zumbini 6,147]

Unless you're running 500 wpc you will be losing a lot of sound that you need with a standing wave. With enough power you can just create more sound to replace that sound though.

I need some real help with this as it seems antithetical to any notion I have on creating a clean acoustic environment.

I too have issues with Shootr's statement that more power will ameliorate the standing wave problem.

Standing waves generally occur within a narrow bandwidth and have double the energy of the music.

A well designed parametric EQ will help, but more power will in most cases make it worse.

 

You'd be better served to eliminate the standing wave via judicious use of room treatments.

[Daddyjt 9,617]

 

 

Adjusting the speaker placement is difficult because of where the rest of the system and TV are located. The room is also small (20x17) for the speaker size - so I plan to test with different power levels (thanks LT) this afternoon.

 

Your room is almost certainly NOT the problem IMHO, and 20x17 is far from small. I had my set in a 12x14 room, and they sounded fabulous.

 

Your problem is likely not enough power. I assume you're using the 200w on the drivers - the impedance curve on the 9 is crazy (1.4 ohms at some frequencies), and you need an amp that can push A LOT of current. I have run mine on Silver 9t mono blocks, and I have bi-amped them with a pair of 1.0t mkIIs - I prefer the mkIIs. These speakers need A TON of power to come alive, and it's not about volume - they just suck a lot of current.

 

I would also check to see if your drivers were wired back correctly after they were refoamed....

 

[kve777 6,888]

Adjusting the speaker placement is difficult because of where the rest of the system and TV are located. The room is also small (20x17) for the speaker size - so I plan to test with different power levels (thanks LT) this afternoon.

Your room is almost certainly NOT the problem IMHO, and 20x17 is far from small. I had my set in a 12x14 room, and they sounded fabulous.

Your problem is likely not enough power. I assume you're using the 200w on the drivers - the impedance curve on the 9 is crazy (1.4 ohms at some frequencies), and you need an amp that can push A LOT of current. I have run mine on Silver 9t mono blocks, and I have bi-amped them with a pair of 1.0t mkIIs - I prefer the mkIIs. These speakers need A TON of power to come alive, and it's not about volume - they just suck a lot of current.

I would also check to see if your drivers were wired back correctly after they were refoamed....

Mine came with two M-1.0t's and I felt that was under-powered. Greg, You want to try a pair of PM-1.5's?

[Daddyjt 9,617]

Agreed, a pair of Stock 1.0t would be a stretch... I find the mkII far more musical than the 1.5 or the Silver 9t (and more powerful than the 1.5). I wish the 500t mkII could handle the impedance curve of the Kappa 9...

[trav0810 586]

This was the reason I sold the Kappa 8's that I had. I never could get any kind of expansive sound stage no matter where I placed them.

[PMAT 2,040]

The 9's may not image well but I can't believe they suck at it. Marks suggestion about checking the wiring is great advice. That's a lot of hardware in those monsters. One reversed driver (it happens in production as well,so check those) will change the image a lot.

[Shootr 13]

I need some real help with this as it seems antithetical to any notion I have on creating a clean acoustic environment.

 

I wasn't kidding about standing waves. The only way to know if you have them is to listen for them. You absolutely can make up for the lost sound with enough power to push more sound to fill in the gaps. But you have to tailor the sound perfectly to do it.  I can't believe people took me seriously when I said that.  It was more or less a joke. It's far easier to just listen and learn. There are basic guidelines for placement but I've always used the tried and true method of trial and error.  But applying 500 wpc to fill in a small gap in a frequency curve is like swatting flies with a sledge hammer. 

 

It is possible to make up for the lost sound that creates a standing wave but really hard to do.  It's more of a bull in a china shop approach than anything.  Geeze people get really touchy sometimes.  And sorry but the only real method of fixing these problems is by moving the speakers.  You can invest a fortune in acoustic tiles and pillows and all sorts of voodoo but the only real solution is speaker placement.  That may not be what you want to hear but it's the truth.  Yes you can conquer some problems with more power but you generally create more problems than you fix.  I still can't believe anyone took that at face value.  It was tongue in cheek all the way.

 

 

You'd be better served to eliminate the standing wave via judicious use of room treatments.

 

This is what I'm talking about that runs into serious money and has limited effect IMO.  Dampening the sound from a standing wave means losing the power it takes to generate that sound and with the added effect of dampening other sounds at the same time.  You can hang blankets on every wall and absorb all sorts of reflected sound problems.  But then a lot of power is lost that may come in handy for those super low notes of hip hop or a bassoon.  You might as well put a pillow over your speaker.  It accomplishes the same thing basically.  

 

I can't believe people think room acoustics isn't an issue.  It is ALWAYS an issue.  They built Carnegie Hall to be perect acoustically.  Their money wasn't wasted.  Standing waves are created by room acoustics period.  And reflected sound in the higher ranges can muck up a sound stage in a hurry.  It's the bright sounds that bounce the most off hard flat surfaces.  I guess I always look at things from the eyes of a recording engineer.  You will find them putting people in bathtubs with a saxophone or in a basement with a guitar trying to get the acoustics right to make the sound right.  Reproducing sound is a very similar process.  That's one of the primary rules of good audio actually.  It's always the room.  The specific problem of a sound stage maybe isn't the most affected part of room acoustics but it does matter.  If you've ever been in a car with a truly great sound system tailored for the car you'll instantly see what a difference the environment makes in sound.   If you've ever listened to how mucked up a set of Bose speakers are when it comes to a sound stage you should get the picture too.  Their "bounce sound off everything" approach is just horrible IMO.  I've never seen it work short of sticking a 901 right on each ear like headphones.

 

The Kappa 8's I've heard sounded exceptionally good and they had no issues with imaging.  I can't imagine the Kappa 9's being really bad at it.  If there's a problem I'd put money on the room being the issue.The simple solution is to move the speakers closer together but that limits the sweet spot for listening.  It's all but impossible to know what the problem is over the internet and that applies to everyone.  We're all guessing.  There are things to try of course.  And speaker placement is near the top of those things to try IMO.  It has always worked for me.  It is something I worked hard at mastering when I was recording the various bands I've recorded.  Sometimes there is just no fixing the problem but there are always ways of improving on the problem even if you don't completely fix it.

[Daddyjt 9,617]

 

 

...I can't believe people think room acoustics isn't an issue. It is ALWAYS an issue...

 

I did not say that room acoustics weren't an issue - i said that his 20x17 room was not the reason for the lack of sound stage the OP is experiencing.

 

I am not a "recording engineer", but I have owned two different pair of Kappa 9s, and I have powered them with a wide variety of different amps. When I say they need power to stretch their legs, I'm not talking about overcoming standing waves (that is patently ignorant), or blowing the windows out. I'm talking about dealing with the real-world issues of the Kappa 9's impedance challenges. If you had owned a pair of these, you would know what I am talking about - there is a reason these speakers are commonly referred to as "amp killers". You don't buy a Corvette to go 200mph everywhere you go - you buy it (specifically it's POWER) for the quick acceleration it provides, and the effortless speed changes that only a substantial amount of power can provide. It's the same thing with amps. The ironic thing is, you were correct with your assertion of "500 watts" was a good thing - just not for the reasons you intended.

 

Standing waves are a real phenomenon, but in a home audio setting, they are easily dealt with in a number of ways - parametric eq, room treatments (which, contrary to your assertions, are a very valuable and economic addition to any listening room), or changing the position of the speakers (which is often not a real world possibility). Standing waves also are most certainly not causing the lack of sound stage the OP is experiencing, as they typically affect a very narrow frequency range(s). And listening is not only NOT the only way to identify them, but it is the least accurate. A microphone and an RTA program or app is the most effective - but I'm sure being a recording engineer, you already knew that.

 

The people on this forum (myself included) were trying to provide the OP with real, actionable advice to solve his problem - please refrain from criticizing them for it.

[Magnaryder 757]

A couple of CFs ago my rig had the same issue. TheBobFather leaned behind my speakes and turned the banana plug over. Problem fixed. Look for driver/speaker phase issue.

 

ray 

[zumbini 6,147]

Note that standing waves (also known as stationary waves) create areas of decreased sound pressure when they combine out of phase and areas of increased sound pressure when they combine in phase.

 

 

 

A node is a point along a standing wave where the wave has minimum amplitude. An anti-node is the point where the wave has maximum amplitude.

 

 

[Shootr 13]

I never meant to imply that standing waves had any effect on imaging of course. I was just rambling about the importance of speaker placement. And there are certainly economical solutions to standing waves but there are also grossly expensive fixes that are hawked too often. A well placed blanket on a wall will do that job as I suggested before.

 

As for my "patently ignorant" remarks you said the very same thing talking about using a parametric EQ to fix a drop off due to a standing wave. So join the ignorant club. All I suggest (tongue in cheek) was that a big amp could give you the power to overcome almost any standing wave issue.

 

It's that kind of "I'm smarter than you and I have no sense of humor" remark (patently ignorant) that keeps me away from discussing audio online. Someone always thinks they're smarter than the world. How about I introduce you to someone my niece just recently worked for. Eddie Kramer is his name. Maybe I can point you to his videos online that lay out how he achieved the remarkable sound that revolutionized modern music. If you don't know who that is you should find out. You'd be surprised who wandered through the Electric Lady while my niece was there. I won't bother telling you for fear of generating more insults. Let's just put it this way. Over 250 million albums sold.

 

You just don't know who you're talking to on the net. I was given the chance to run a large studio for a record company that handled some well known bands. They didn't think I was "patently ignorant". I'm sorry you missed the humor in my remarks. I'm sorry you don't get it that you said exactly the same thing without the 500wpc joke I included. And I'm sorry you don't understand that the sound stage of any speakers are affected by speaker placement in any room. It may not be the primary problem but it never hurts to try to see if problems can be fixed by speaker placement. And I've seen several other comments on this thread that mentioned speaker placement in one form or another like talking about moving the speakers closer together.

 

I can see this crowd has no sense of humor and you suffer from a big case of "I'm smarter than you". So who needs you. I'll go back to doing things you likely never dreamed of doing. And the next time you want to talk about someone being ignorant you should be looking in a mirror.

[zumbini 6,147]

I reread your earlier comment Shootr and again got no indication that you were making a joke.

Next time I suggest you add a well placed  or  to prevent another misunderstanding.