GR-Research Speaker Upgrade Kits?

[garyh 460]

Anyone upgraded their speakers with Danny’s upgrade kits?  I’ve watched some of his videos (GR-Research on YT).  But I was esp. interested in his evaluation of the SVS Ultra Series.  I've watched enough to know the guy is hard to please; there are few speakers he doesn’t think need upgrading in one way or another, and usually some major redesign of the crossovers.   But his review of the design and engineering of the SVS Ultra Towers (the Bookshelf didn’t fare quite as well) was—for him—quite glowing.  He likes the way the speakers measure out of the box, has lots of nice things to say about them.* 

 

But he then goes on to show all the “cheesy parts” in the crossover assemblies.  The tweeter’s crossover isn’t terrible, but the mid and low range crossovers have lots of cheap parts.  And then, of course, there’s the common cheap thin wiring inside and the ferromagnetic bits.

 

**Now, I know, this is par for course in most speakers, even expensive and great sounding speakers—cost cutting, profit line, etc.  And I realize too, that if I were to peek inside any of my treasured speakers from the past, that all blew me away, I’d see the same, or worse.  But this appears to me to be a neglected piece of the big picture for us audiophiles, we, who fuss over all the minutiae, trying to get the best out of our systems.  A weak link that doesn’t seem to get a whole lot of discussion.  (And if any of us built our own speakers from scratch, I’m certain we’d use better quality parts).

 

It makes sense to me that upgrading some of these components (and internal wiring and connections) could noticeably enhance the performance of a speaker—just how much might be debatable, and might vary from speaker to speaker, but it’s not snake oil. 

 

I’m meticulous about my gear in all aspects.  I'm not a speaker wire zealot; I believe there is a quickly reached point of diminishing returns.  But I do want good, solid, heavy-gauge, quality copper wire.  And one of the reasons I bi-amp is because I worry about those jumpers between the two sets of posts being a weak link.  So, to my mind, upgrading the cheap, thin aluminum wire inside my speaker cabinets makes sense, let alone upgrading the important crossover components (inductors, caps and resistors).  It seems to me that the weakest links are likely right inside the cabinet there. 

 

(And anyone who’s concerned about speaker wire and connections, esp. those spending $5, $10 or even more per foot of speaker wire but isn’t giving a thought to what’s inside the speaker cabinet itself, well, that just doesn’t make sense.  (Esp. when you consider that most speakers, even really expensive speakers, are likely using cheap, thin wire to connect to the drivers.  Sure, it’s a short run, but still—wouldn’t you feel better knowing you’ve got good, solid, thicker copper wire in there))?

 

Happily, Danny likes the way SVS designed and engineered the 3 ½ way crossover network—he wouldn’t make any changes to the design (and that’s rare for him, from what I've seen).  So, his kit for the SVS Ultra Towers is basically a part-for-part replacement/ upgrade procedure—not terribly complex.  And I actually spoke to him by phone, seems like a nice guy—he’s happy to send me step by step pictures along with the instructions from an upgrade he performed on a set of Ultra Towers.  Very cool.

 

I'm thinking of ordering the kit and giving it a go.  Not because I think the speakers need fixing in any way—no, in fact, they blow me away… these are GREAT speakers!  But why not amp it up a bit, see if I can get even more, if possible?  It just seems to make sense to me—being so persnickety—to get rid of any possible weak links, cheap parts.  It’s almost a no brainer. 

 

I realize any performance enhancement might be subtle.  But whatever I hear will be further bolstered by that pleasant sense of wellbeing that comes with knowing all the bits and pieces inside my new speakers now truly match their external beauty and their excellent engineering and crossover design.  And our subconscious is a powerful seasoner.

 

Anyone upgraded speakers with GR-Research kits?  Or for that matter, did your own upgrades?  Or do you think the cost and work required exceeds any payoff? 

 

Here’s his video on the SVS Ultra Bookshelf and Towers.

https://youtu.be/zLu_6N3MoJ4

 

*(SIDE NOTE: His measurements also confirmed my suspicions:  Contrary to the many reviews of the SVS Ultra Towers I've watched and read, where the reviewer mentions speaker placement as being very critical, esp. for imaging: i.e., “the speakers need to be toed in [often dramatically] for best performance,” I've found the opposite—the speakers sound great from just about everywhere when facing (nearly, in my case) directly forward.  (And I’ve always been a fan of speakers lined up straight into the room, when possible, for style and appearance).  His horizontal and vertical off-axis measurements show excellent performance across the board).

 

[PMAT 2,037]

First of all have fun doing the upgrade if you choose to do so. Swapping nicer stuff of equal value is satisfying. I have not upgraded with his stuff but I have found that over time he has gone further and further into the snake oil side of the spectrum. I followed GR for a long time (years) on Audio Circle. My take is that he goes too far now in order to sell more of his own product. The smarter the guy, the less slack I will give about perceived issues. When he rants about connectors I think about fuses. I cracked myself up by putting massive wire in my Silver speakers and it runs into a TINY wire in the fuse. And the fuse isn't exactly soldered or screwed to the fuse holder. If Danny looked into a Carver amp he would declare it junk and incapable of good sound. We know that is not the case. Upgrading is fun and satisfying on many levels, however it rarely results in real gains. Different than original is not better unless we want to believe it. Understanding circuit limitations and trade offs and redesigning it through proper engineering for a better result is rarely what the DIY upgrades accomplish. Fun, yes. Pretty, yes. Better, not usually. A MKII upgrade has nothing to do with boutique capacitors and heavy 99.9999 pure grain cryoed virgin copper. It's about circuit understanding and redesign with very specific measurable goals.

The bottom line is that I don't trust Danny anymore. It is good however to examine the build of your equipment. I had a very nice pair of speakers that wouldn't image right. It turns out they had different crossovers inside so they got modded to match. 

I do like to use shiny metallic green caps though. Warmer sound than blue for sure. Black Gates only take you to the dark side and into Mordor so I don't use those. (Gollum was an EE by the way. Thats how his eyes got like that).

[Nahash5150 10,629]

 

 

No proof whatsoever - just very clever deception.

 

Watch out!

[garyh 460]

Yeah.  I saw that video too and it sort of turned me off.  (I’m not a speaker wire extremist.  And I’m not a Danny devotee.  But he makes some good points in other areas.  And I do realize he’s a polemical character).

 

And I pretty much agree with everything you said above, PMAT, esp. the idea that the further you go, the more you find - into the abyss.  But in this case - no design changes, just better parts, wire and terminations - I find it a bit more straightforward. 

 

Measurable differences are one thing; audible differences are another.  And I honestly don't expect much.  But there is a part of me that can't help but covet the nicer parts.

 

But I candidly can't really imagine the speakers sounding much better!  Esp. while still on the old, tired amps.  If I do the upgrade, it will probably be after getting my upgraded and refurbed M500-ts into service.  (Now there, I expect wonderful things).  That will give me a better starting base.

 

It's not cheap - the Ultra Tower kit (with it's 3 1/2 way design) - but it might be interesting to see if I can discern a difference.  But with all that work and all those bright, shiny, pretty, upgraded parts, and the subsequent sense of accomplishment, I’ll have to be careful to remain fully objective.  But with friends like you guys here, I'm sure I can manage!  Ha!  (I expected these sorts of responses and I'm happy for them)!  😁  But I am curious if anyone has used one of his kits - good, bad or indifferent.  

 

I DO see the pros and cons.  But I fall back on the "if I made it myself, what would I use" argument some too.  It certainly can’t hurt (if I'm careful and take my time).  And might be fun.  And who knows—maybe, just maybe, my ears will notice a difference?  It’s not impossible.  Might be worth testing, just to see.  And I do have more and more time on my hands - and enjoy this sort of thing.  However, oddly enough, I'm choosing to upgrade speakers that Danny himself would likely put at the end of a very long list of speakers that would benefit from an upgrade.  I see that too.

 

Thanks for the responses.  I’ll keep you posted.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by garyh

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

Very carefully crafted demo.

[garyh 460]

Funny enough, just doing some more research and I came across this from Paul McGowan (PS Audio), his take on the internal wire in speakers.  He pretty much lines up with just what I was saying above, has the same opinion—whether it actually makes a difference or not, it’s a bit offensive (his words).  I get it.

I’ve watched his videos before but had never seen this one.  I’d say he’s a bit less controversial than Danny, but I’m sure, not without his detractors. 

But I get what he’s saying.  It’s what I'm feeling too.

 

 

 

 

I searched his videos a bit more and find that, overall, he’s not really a speaker wire zealot—even advocates 12 gauge Romex from Home Depot for many applications!

On running common Romex for long runs:

 

 

 

And more about Romex and cable gauges in general and the ribbon cable used in the music room:

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by garyh

[Nahash5150 10,629]

Gary - the pursuit of high quality is a good thing. Getting the very best you can for your listening adventure is what this is all about.

 

But this topic makes me think of all the many discussions and even arguments we've had on this site and others about similar things. People will talk about a something, share opinions, and then someone like me comes along and spoils the magic.

 

But that's not my intention. The founder, @RichP714, created this site to share truthful information, facts, and technical insights and discoveries and developments into audio, especially Carver, and thus form a community around that spirit. So please don't get me wrong - this topic is worth discussing, but like many things in audio, it has some die hard mythology behind it.

 

I think the pursuit of quality gets conflated with the pursuit of fidelity. They aren't really the same thing.

 

Owning speakers with real, hand-picked walnut veneer is beautiful and very high quality. But if someone were to claim that that speaker veneer creates a better soundstage in comparison to a plastic veneer is stretching the truth of the matter.

 

Supremely High Quality parts do not equate to fidelity either. Anyone who's taken the time to take measurements and collect data for comparisons knows this.

 

But I'm not at all opposed in any way to people using them or buying or even selling them. But when claims are made that just aren't true - it needs to be called out.

 

With regard to crossovers - they can be designed to overcome component shortcomings. But at the same time, it is an area in the audio chain that often has room for improvement. Thing is, crossovers are simple on the outside, yet extremely complex the deeper you dive. You really have to know what you're doing to 'upgrade' a crossover.

[Nahash5150 10,629]

12 minutes ago, garyh said:

Funny enough, just doing some more research and I came across this from Paul McGowan (PS Audio),

 

Gary - all that information is all over this site.

 

You're starving for audio knowledge - so I would suggest going back to some old posts by RichP, and maybe some by yours truly. You'll find discussions PACKED with knowledge and insight by many of the members here. This site is just not as active as it used to be.

 

Paul is a good salesman - I'll just stay with that. He's right on some things, totally wrong on others.

 

 

[garyh 460]

13 minutes ago, Nahash5150 said:

I think the pursuit of quality gets conflated with the pursuit of fidelity. They aren't really the same thing.

 

Greg!  First, you are NOT spoiling anything for me.  In fact, that's why I post here.  It's exactly what I want - feedback from those who have a great deal more experience than me.  I am happy to hear your opinions even if, esp. if, it's not matching up to what I was thinking.  

 

Yes! I am in the pursuit of quality in this case!  In fact, it's probably all I'll get out of this if I move forward.  But quality ain't so bad for a dude with my anal tendencies.  

 

You have not, can not offend me!  I've got thick skin in the first place, but again, I'm delighted you take the time to share your learned opinion!  

Edited December 17, 2021 by garyh

[garyh 460]

8 minutes ago, Nahash5150 said:

You're starving for audio knowledge - so I would suggest going back to some old posts by RichP, and maybe some by yours truly. You'll find discussions PACKED with knowledge and insight by many of the members here. This site is just not as active as it used to be.

 

Will do.  I searched for GR-Research earlier, before posting, but will look further into the general subject.

[Nahash5150 10,629]

Cool!

 

Thick skin is not tending here - so just making sure!

2 minutes ago, garyh said:

...share your learned opinion!  

 

Sometimes opinions...sometimes facts...sometimes the truth...sometimes BS.

 

You may never know for sure...muhaha

[BarryG 2,853]

The main reason I follow Danny and GR-research is my interest in open baffle speakers!  I also follow Clayton Shaw at Spatial Audio. 
 

I had considered building one of  Danny speaker kits (x-static ) when my Spatial Audio m3 triode masters fell into my lap, for considerably less than what the last few sold for on us audiomart!

 

the Carverfest 275 handles this pair of speakers wonderfully!  These speakers were my last big purchase before I was diagnosed with cancer!  I am quite content with this as my main system!

 

later on I might add a subwoofer!

 

when it comes to Danny’s videos, I take most of what he says with a grain of salt!  Some speakers may need some work, but I mostly upgrade the ‘cheesy components’ with quality parts!  I do like sonicaps in the tweeter  circuit! I also put air coil inductors snd mills resistors in the circuit!  Keeping the same crossover design as original, but with better parts!  
 

i know this thread is about upgrade kits.  Danny suggests buying his speaker kits rather than buying a speaker to upgrade!  

The upgrade service is for customers to send in a problem speaker to be evaluated by Danny and he sometimes makes a video!  The more common upgrades, are the ones he lists on his website!  
 

just about all upgrade kits include his ‘tube connectors’  and In many cases his no-res. Material!  Again He is trying to sell his own products!  Just be aware if you choose to go in the upgrade direction!

[4krow 6,516]

  It has always been a compulsion in me to get things 'right' as I can whether or not it makes a difference. When working for the phone company, we were taught to wire and work so that our product would have a useful life of 40+ years. That is one thing, but not just the work, but also the product should be as strong. Whether or not it makes a difference I am less willing to say except that it will not be a thing to point at.

 When raising my kids, I told them that their successes or failures should not ever be due to lack of effort. 

 

  When it concerns upgrades and the like it is as much about pride as it might be about sound. I'll likely not change.