What speakers would best match with a Carver M-500t Amp?

[chiroacademy 833]

What speakers would you recommend to match with a pair of M-500t MKII amps? Sunfire Symphonic Reference preamp. 

Under $3000 

 

I currently have Von Schweikert VR3 and 1 SunfireTrue Subwoofer EQ 12.  I love the sound of my system but I have found that many times I don't know what I'm missing.   

[fill35U 1,846]

That's a wide-open question!

 

I think you'll have more luck with suggestions as to the very few speakers in that price range that a pair of M-500t MkII's *won't* drive well. At least that will eliminate some options.

 

Are used speakers ok? Or are you only looking for new?

 

Do you want a speaker system that will give accurate, loud, very deep base, or do you have that well covered by your Sunfire sub?

Since you have VSA VR3's, do you prefer bipolar speakers? 

 

What kinds of music do you listen to? At what typical volume? What is your listening room like? Can you post pics of it? What changes are you willing to make to it to accommodate different speakers?

 

You have nice gear already, and I'm not surprised that you love the way it sounds! But I'm puzzled by your statement that you often don't know what you're missing. How did you discover that you we're missing these things, how did you learn what they were, and what were they? 

[chiroacademy 833]

I thought my mission speakers sounded great until I got the VR3's. Are there speakers out there that would be a much better quality than what I have?

I thought my system sounded great until I added acoustic panels.  That made a huge improvement. 

I have always like Magneplanar 

I think the Sunfire sub does a good job but I don't know enough to know better.  If that makes any sense.

Used speakers are fine. 

I love acoustical at a medium level, I like rock at a loud level.

I love it when I get good spacial separation more than anything.  

I like the way may system sounds but I find that I have added parts to my system and was very surprised to find out how much better my system sounded after the fact.    

[chiroacademy 833]

I didn't know if there were speakers out there that were a great match or a perfect match with the Carver Amps.

[zumbini 6,147]

Have you filled the VR3's midrange chamber with sand? If not it will make a BIG difference.

 

As for matching your M-500t MKII to speakers (or vice versa) it's more about what doesn't work.

For instance, avoid speakers with an impedance curve that spends much time below 2 ohms.

Also avoid speakers that require a common ground amp like the Polk SDA series.

Otherwise you should be good to go. 

[chiroacademy 833]

No I haven't filled the mid range chamber with sand.  That sounds odd but that's what I mean by things that I don't know. Frankly I'm a little nervous about putting sand in my speaker.  I will have to research this a little bit before I start dumping sand in.  I'll let you know how it goes.  Does it matter what type of sand?

[snow 240]

 

 

I thought my mission speakers sounded great until I got the VR3's. Are there speakers out there that would be a much better quality than what I have?

I thought my system sounded great until I added acoustic panels.  That made a huge improvement. 

I have always like Magneplanar 

I think the Sunfire sub does a good job but I don't know enough to know better.  If that makes any sense.

Used speakers are fine. 

I love acoustical at a medium level, I like rock at a loud level.

I love it when I get good spacial separation more than anything.  

I like the way may system sounds but I find that I have added parts to my system and was very surprised to find out how much better my system sounded after the fact.    

You can always improve upon your system whatever it is and yes if you have enough money there are better speakers than what you currently have. The biggest thing to keep in mind is only upgrade one item at a time until you have it like you want, if you change more than one thing at a time it is hard to tell where the improvement came from, also keep what you have until you are sure that the upgrade is an improvement sometimes spending more does not equal better sound and the only true way to tell is to compare the two items side by side.

 

 

REGARDS SNOW 

[chiroacademy 833]

I bought these used. I now understand the why there is a removable cap under the top panel.  To fill with sand!  LOL I don't have an owners manual and I can't find one on line.  Can anyone help me with filling my speaker with sand?

[fill35U 1,846]

Wow, good catch, Dom! I never would have thought to ask!

 

In the same vein, have you tried experimenting with the aiming of the rear tweeters on your VR3's?

 

VSA, by their business model, seems incredibly supportive of their customers. Have you tried contacting them directly, for tuning and upgrade suggestions? I bet they would be happy to mail you a manual and some brochures, even if you're a second-hand owner.

 

"What sand is best?" appears to be a very common question. I don't have any experience with these, or any other sand filled speakers. But if they were mine, here's what I would think about:

 

1. Try to find the best room location first. Moving them *after* they are full of sand could get messy and heavy!

 

2. Fill only one at a time. Then compare right vs. left to see which sounds better, sand or no sand. Also listen with your back to them, I know *my* ears have very different response curves between left and right(blame the guns and cars).

 

3. Fill them gradually, stopping to see how the sound changes. Perhaps they'll sound best half-full? Get a hose, a funnel, and a buddy to pour sand while he is off to the side, so his body is as far from the radiation pattern as possible. Close your eyes and listen for a change as the sand goes in.

 

4. Try fillers besides sand. Table salt is significantly denser, but still cheap. Baking soda is finer (might pack denser). Lead shot is of course much denser, but relatively expensive (but cheaper than the speakers!). I'd suggest #12 birdshot (aka "dust"). If you wanted to get crazy, you could go with a tungsten alloy, very roughly 50% denser than lead... Or a mix of grain sizes and materials. 

 

5. Don't forget the feet! Spikes will help decouple them from the floor (and make it easier to vacuum the sand from under them).

 

Hope that helps! Please let us know your results! 

 

 

[chiroacademy 833]

WOW awesome suggestions.  Something as simple as a funnel may save me tons of clean up work.  They are on spikes already. I think I'll investigate the lead shot idea and try giving VSA a call.  When I started the day I think the last thing on my mind was to pour sand in my speakers. 

 

I appreciate everyone on this forum.   My best tweak has been the Carve Site.

[Schurkey 139]

 

 

5. Don't forget the feet! Spikes will help couple them to the floor

FIFY

[fill35U 1,846]

Thanks for the  correction, Schurkey!

 

However, that appears to be a hotly debated technicality. Definitely food for thought... All my speakers are suspended at the moment, so I haven't done much with spikes lately.

 

But I think we can all agree that spikes can easily make a noticeable sonic difference!  

 

 

[chiroacademy 833]

I put 20 lbs of blasting sand into each speaker.  Not sure if I can tell too much of a difference yet but I have only listened to a couple songs.  It only filled the cavity up about half way.  I'm going to buy some more and see if that makes a difference.

[Chuck 74]

DAHLQUIST DQM-9

Wait till you hear the sound of these!!!

[chiroacademy 833]

Does anyone know about what the owner manual states about filling the VR-3 with sand?  I can't find anything on the web.  I have them half filled with clean dust free blasting sand.  I filled them up to the bottom of the back of the speaker in that chamber.  I think it's a tweeter. Should you fill it past the speaker to get the best response?

[zumbini 6,147]

This review from 1996 says to FILL the chamber:

 

In marches the VR-3 to the rescue! (see picture below right -- front, VR-3 without grill cloth covering, back VR-4). It brings with it most of the virtues of VR-4 at a rock bottom $1850 USD. How did they do it? Instead of two physical cabinets that make up the VR-4, the VR-3 is a single cabinet. It sports the same five inch midrange driver and metal dome tweeter as the VR-4. There is also the same adjustable rear-firing tweeter to add spatial ambiance. The VR-4 uses two eight inch woofers to reach down to 20hz. The VR-4 woofer enclosure is physically separate from the midrange tweeter module. They stack together to make the complete loudspeaker. On the other hand, the VR-3 uses a single ten inch woofer, and although the driver enclosures are distinct, it is one complete unit. VRS claims ruler flat VR-3 bass response to 25Hz, though your room will be a major influence on what is actually achievable.

 

The cabinet construction is exceptional. Primarily, it uses one inch mdf throughout. The mdf panels are thicker in some areas of the bass cabinet, up to 1.5 inches, to increase rigidity and more evenly distribute cabinet resonances. The novel feature of this design is the use of sand! Yes sand. There is a chamber, accessible from the top, to fill the area behind the midrange enclosure. Why? Sand mass loads the cabinet, bringing its already imposing 95 lb. shipping weight up to a back spasming 130 lbs. As well, the sand further damps the midrange. The goal is increased midrange and high-frequency detail, transparency, and palpability.

 

I can see it now, a speaker tweakers dream come to life!

"Well, I used flour, but it was a little dry sounding"

"You did, huh? I used sugar! Very sweet through the midrange."

"Have you tried Jello? It makes for a soft, smooth texture."

 

In order to keep the costs down Von Schweikert has opted for the same type of finish used in the standard VR-4. That is, grill cloth from top to bottom. Less finished wood equals less cost. Nicely finished wood end caps go on the top and the bottom. The standard $1850 job comes with black end-caps. While these are acceptable, they do not ring my buzzer. Snazzier finishes in oak and cherry are available for $150 more. Go for this option! It is a world of difference. Dealers will be overjoyed with the detachable end caps, because color stocking is now much less a problem. Same for goes for consumers who wish to change the look of the speaker if it does not quite fit in a few years down the road. If you are now wondering how you fill the sand through the end-caps, these simply snap on. And PUL-LEASE do not miss the sand-filling step, it is essential (the Jello was a joke -- OK?).

 

Some serious work has gone into this design. Quite frankly, I am impressed at the level of detail, the attention to quality, and the goals of performance. I have seen a lot less speaker going for a whole lot more money in the market. There is no question in my mind that the intention of the VR-3 is to provide a high-quality loudspeaker for the discriminating audiophile. One speaker manufacturer said to me, "I don’t know how Von Schweikert can offer that much speaker for the money!" As a consumer careful about my money, I take this type of remark seriously. Ever see a Supply and Demand curve shift?

 

Now all this design work will not make one ‘I-O-Ta’ of difference if the sound is not right. I have heard the VR-3’s in various systems and have been very impressed. Still, you have to hear any component in your own room, with your own gear to really get a grip on the performance. The VR-3’s were plunked into my current reference roundup. Theta digital gear heads up the front in the form of a Theta Data Basic and Prime II DAC. The elegant, esoteric and sonically stunning Canadian made Blue Circle BC-2 amps and BC-3 preamp (reviews coming soon) did all that power handling. Cabling throughout is by Nirvana Audio, my new reference wire. I find the Nirvana cables extraordinarily transparent, yet musically alive and involving like no cable I have had in my system to date (review forthcoming).

 

The result in my 14 by 16 foot room, by my rules, through my ears, played through the VR-3’s -- is reference caliber. Sure, there may be better speakers out there, but the performance I am getting is so good that I know I would be laying down much more money to achieve something appreciably better. What does this tell me about the VR-3? It is a true high-end performer that will feel at home with the best of components.

 

And would I rather have the VR-4? No! Not that the VR-4 is not better. I do find the standard VR-4 a hair more refined in the upper registers, but the size, as well as the bass depth of the VR-4 just would not work in my room. That’s fine with me since the VR-3 is almost half the price. If I had a larger room it may be a different story. Maybe!

 

So what is it that I like so much about the VR-3’s sound? First and foremost, the midrange of a speaker has to be right. For example, it must replicate a human voice with proper weight, tonal quality, and transparency. A properly reproduced voice, male or female, must sound full-bodied and uncolored. Too many speakers have a chesty quality I cannot stand. This is most predominant on male vocals. Or they will reproduce the female voice as sharp or piercing. The VR-3, like the VR-4, is outstanding in this regard. The palpability, body, and weight sounds real to me. Sarah McClachlan, Jennifer Warnes, Tom Waits, Lyle Lovette, and Jim Cuddy all sound like they are right here in my listening room with musical ease and a sense of rightness that few speakers can duplicate.

 

This is only one aspect of midrange reproduction, there are others, and the VR-3 handles it all with fantastic grace and finesse. Albert Von Schweikert believes that the midrange driver should be free to produce as wide a frequency range as possible and not to have the woofer cross-over too high into the midrange. The result would deteriorate midrange performance.

 

The high frequencies are reproduced with an equal sense of air, detail, and ease. Highs are not harsh, etched, or bright -- which is A-1 in my books. I cannot add anything more in this regard. For a speaker designed today I feel that it is simply unacceptable to have anything less than pristine, clear, and detailed treble performance. Ten years or so ago many speakers were plagued with overly harsh tweeter performance, mostly what I would have attributed to as tweeter ‘breakup.’ Or alternatively, they sounded dull and lifeless. Great high frequency performance was not commonplace. Tweeter and crossover driver design has obviously improved radically. I have noticed excellent high-frequency performance from many speakers I’ve listened to in the last five years or so. The VR-3 is no exception.

 

As well, the adjustable rear firing tweeter produces some interesting and substantial effects. Properly balanced, it seems to greatly enhance the spatial presentation resulting in a fine sense of depth and air. Frankly, before I heard this I was skeptical of the benefit. But some very, very good designs use an adjustable rear firing tweeter and my experience proved that my skepticism was unfounded. Overall, the illusion of a soundstage was nicely improved.

 

Since we are talking about soundstaging -- Mamma Mia! These VSR speakers cast a huge, transparent stage. Their physical speaker size is certainly imposing, but when the music plays the speakers disappear leaving a wonderfully clear window into the performance. Imaging has excellent distinction and depth is from here to theeeeeeeere.

 

Now comes what I have seen as the hot item of discussion on the Internet -- bass performance from VSR speakers. I have a theory about just why this is such a hot-topic -- it is because VSR speakers are one of few speakers that really produce deep bass. With many other speakers it is not even a topic of discussion because it is not there! There are very few speakers that produce truly full range sound. Did you ever have a lengthy discussion about the deep bass-performance of a Proac Tablette or a Celestion SL-700?. When I hear deep bass performance talked about it is usually in the same breath as Mirage, Velodyne, HSU, Muse, Wilson, and a handful of others.

 

And by deep bass I mean full-range down to 20hz. Furthermore, producing deep bass at high SPL levels is another story. This is a daunting task that it seems to require a separate subwoofer or a whole lot of money. That said, quality of bass still takes precedence over quantity of bass. What we have here in the VR-3 is extremely high-quality, deep bass by my books. Maybe not down to 20hz, but not that far off either. And they play LOUD. Furthermore, the bass sounds natural and most importantly, very real. When you hear deep bass, you feel deep bass in your body, in the floor, in the furniture you sit on.

 

Overall, the VR-3 gives me the best bass reproduction I have ever experienced in my room. Too many speakers have come in and out these doors with humps in the 60 to 80hz range. While these humps tend to give a huge whallop to the sound, and may be just what the latest movie soundtrack ordered, this exaggeration tends to blur bass definition resulting in a chesty, woolly sound. To my ears the accuracy of the VR-3 bass performance is outstanding. It is going deeper than any speaker I have played here. So much so that I achieved my first neighbor complaint, via my landlord. Seems the subterranean thumping was compared to an earthquake or something. At the same time, I am achieving this extended bass while maintaining the utmost clarity through the upper bass region. There is no smearing, no blurring, and no chestiness. Furthermore, the bass is tight with detail that I have NEVER experienced at this price point and have only heard through considerably more expensive speakers.

 

What more can I say other than the VR-3 is a hot-ticket in the speaker market begging for an audition. To say that I'm astounded with the VR-3 would still be an understatement. It is rare to find a product, like the Von Schweikert VR-3, that I can recommend to anyone with absolutely no hesitation. The VR-3 combines extraordinary build quality with superb and accurate musical performance at an unbelievably low price. No doubt, this speaker sets a benchmark level of performance that will have the competition scratching their heads for a long time to come.

 

In summary, I don’t care if you have $1000, $5000, or more, you owe it to yourself to hear these speakers. The $1850 asking price is so ridiculously low it makes the VR-3 an outright steal. They are so good that you shouldn't compare these speakers with others in this price range, compare them with speakers costing much, much more. Not only do I give the Von Schweikert VR-3 my highest endorsement, I encourage anyone to seek these speakers out. Drive 500 miles if you have to. If you don’t, you may miss out on the best value in high-end audio today.

 

…Doug Schneider

das@sstage.com

[CT-Seven 764]

Obviously my input is well short of the bill, but I drove my M500t with a set of Polk Audio Monitor 10's that sounded just wonderful

[zumbini 6,147]

Howdy stranger! Nice to see you back on the forum CT-Seven. 

[CT-Seven 764]

Howdy stranger! Nice to see you back on the forum CT-Seven. 

 

Breathing back some OCCD air to see if I get back on a groove, my marrige has me broke thou LOL

[zumbini 6,147]

Got your PM but can't reply because your status is VISITOR. Email me at "my handle" at yahoo dot com.

[danowood 2,167]

 

Breathing back some OCCD air to see if I get back on a groove, my marrige has me broke thou LOL

 

Haa!!!  ya think so?  Wait till ya see how a Divorce leaves you    JK   Some women can be high maintence which does leave you with less play money hee hee

[angelod307 63]

Everyone is missing my speakers, i am building from the knowledge acquired working with bob. Ok, i tease, although they are nice. I wish i had more fellow members close by to hear them and swap notes. Oh well.

[Gene C 1,748]

 

 

 

Everyone is missing my speakers, i am building from the knowledge acquired working with bob. Ok, i tease, although they are nice. I wish i had more fellow members close by to hear them and swap notes. Oh well.

That sounds great. Do you have any photos? Have you posted them here on the site? Would be interesting to see these... 

 

[angelod307 63]

As i have no trouble uploading into facebook, that is were i post all photos. Angelod307 or evangelos dimitriadis should bring me up in a search.

[Gene C 1,748]

 

 

As i have no trouble uploading into facebook, that is were i post all photos. Angelod307 or evangelos dimitriadis should bring me up in a search.

Ever think about getting a Photobucket account to upload those photos here seeing since some people here don't facebook? That is if you want to share them with us..... It's easy getting a Photobucket account, I'm sure there are plenty here that would love to see and hear all about your speakers you speak of and know that would be a nice contribution from you.