A New Sonic Hologram Generator is coming from Bob Carver.

[BobTFM35 1,641]

@Ar9Jim What tubes are being discussed for installation?

 

I would assume if exposed tubes were the final decision they would be installed in similar fashion as done on the tube amps? User installed.

 

With internal tubes, factory installed with a wire hold down? I know on the 490 and 390 CD player it was lets say, an exercise in patience to replace any one of the two tubes found inside.

Edited September 3, 2023 by BobTFM35

[4krow 5,087]

I had a tube preamp once that had so many options for the available tubes themselves, and then different options for how those tubes were operated. I found myself switching back and forth often, ending in me just selling it to someone else to have a toy. It seems right to have a unit that does every possible thing to the music, with endless choices. I prefer a unit that is straightforward.

[Ar9Jim 6,112]

31 minutes ago, BobTFM35 said:

@Ar9Jim What tubes are being discussed for installation?

 

I would assume if exposed tubes were the final decision they would be installed in similar fashion as done on the tube amps? User installed.

 

With internal tubes, factory installed with a wire hold down? I know on the 490 and 390 CD player it was lets say, an exercise in patience to replace any one of the two tubes found inside.

Hi Bob,

Likely 6DJ8. For the customers who want the tube buffer option, the tubes will be exposed through the lid (similar to an amp) and have some copper colored cages on them. 

 

The standard version with have a nice flat top, for easy stacking.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Ar9Jim

[BobTFM35 1,641]

I was just over at tube depot and they were what I was looking at. 

 

I like the choices that are proposed.

[ChrisTFM35 598]

6DJ8 is great. It's what's in the 390T and the 490T. 

[jvandyke_texas 432]

Forget tubes.  The tube sound comes from the amplifier output stage.  This is a signal processor.

The problem with the SH generator is that it's designed to cancel only the 1st arrival of the opposite channel.  I redesigned mine to cancel 1st arrival and all subsequent arrivals.  That is, it cancels the cancellation signals.  It has quite a different sound, and I had to shape the frequency response differently.  It's part of my C-4000 redesign project.  Unfortunately the project is on hold since I sold my house.

 

[4krow 5,087]

Another company essentially used the multiple cancellations with DSP that you are describing with your unit. Sound is literally 160-180 degrees wide. Every inch in the room has part of an image in it. So, do I like it? No. Not life like at all. You are inside of the orchestra, deeper than the conductor.

 Again, and as always, we each like what we like.

  The hybrid tube designs seem to go with the tube used in the input for 'tube flavor' and a SS output for sheer power and bass slam. But I am sure that others put the cart before the horse successfully and win too.

Edited September 5, 2023 by 4krow
traumatized typing

[Ar9Jim 6,112]

Excellent input guys. Your input on subjects is very similar to the 'focus groups' within larger companies. Your input is appreciated.  

[Ar9Jim 6,112]

3 hours ago, jvandyke_texas said:

Forget tubes.  The tube sound comes from the amplifier output stage.  This is a signal processor.

The problem with the SH generator is that it's designed to cancel only the 1st arrival of the opposite channel.  I redesigned mine to cancel 1st arrival and all subsequent arrivals.  That is, it cancels the cancellation signals.  It has quite a different sound, and I had to shape the frequency response differently.  It's part of my C-4000 redesign project.  Unfortunately the project is on hold since I sold my house.

 

Good points JV.. This lead to the buffer being an option for those with solid state systems who want to add some tubes, but it will be available with or without the buffer as an option.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Ar9Jim

[jvandyke_texas 432]

4krow, result will be highly dependent on frequency shaping and injection ratio.  So can't bulk dismiss that full cancellation sounds bad.  There's a lot of artistry to this.

 

[4krow 5,087]

Yes, that would make sense and the product that I was using (I think it was mini-DSP unit that is no longer sold) went way overboard with the effect to a degree that I didn't care for. Naturally, it is as you say and how this process is being implemented. When I listened to the Mini DSP product, it was simply unbelievable, I mean that literally. Don't doubt for a second it sounded incredible in its own way. Very impressive feat, but not one that was believable.

 Your attempt sounds to have a different approach for things like the injection ratio, and as you said frequency shaping. In other words a different tuning entirely. I applaud anyone who has gone out and used a proven technique to make the most of it.

[jvandyke_texas 432]

There was a fad of 3 dimensional audio processors in the late 70s.  Even Radio Shack had their Realistic version.  Most were ham fisted and over the top.  Boomy and way overmixed.  Carver made his musical and was the winner.  It's time he rearranges the delays to cancel cancellations.  You get more auditorium reverberation.

[4krow 5,087]

 Did you ever hear Hughes AK100 unit? It came from a completely different approach to try and recreate 3D image. Honestly, I forget where they were coming from with research. I bought one just to hear, and dammit, the brain knows when it's trying to be fooled. So many IC in that thing too. Just rows of them.

[jvandyke_texas 432]

How does the Hughes AK-100 effect compare to the C-9?

I would very much like to read the owner's manual.  I doubt a service manual is available.

 

[BobTFM35 1,641]

@jvandyke_texas

Hughes Manuals | HiFi Engine

 

Two images

Hughes | HiFi Engine

Edited September 6, 2023 by BobTFM35

[Dadvw 2,807]

On 9/3/2023 at 7:08 AM, Ar9Jim said:

A DTL, autocorrelator, peak unlimitor could be a product of its own.

 

For now the the SH generator will have the Gundry option included, and the tube buffer can be optional. The option can be fairly easy to accommodate and can keep the base unit cost lower. 

 

Guys can have it either way.

 

Tubes sticking out the top are wanted by some, but not by others for stacking components. Part of the allure is the visible glow.

 

The unit will be about the same depth as a C1 so it's friendly to be stacked with others.

 

Thanks for the input. Keep it coming.

 

Do you guys want to see video when the chassis and face plates are being machined?

I would like to see the video!  If it's real long, Bob, pass the popcorn........😂😂

[BobTFM35 1,641]

@Dadvw Coming up, but only one size, Served in a large bucket!!

[radtraveller 220]

Lots of butter..  i need the calories.

[jvandyke_texas 432]

Listening comparison AK-100 and C-9:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHXQMhvvmKg

 

This is the concept:

Clearly issued before USPTO limited claims to 20.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4748669A/en

 

Fake stereo from mono:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4841572A/

 

Dynamically amplifying sum and difference:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4866774A/en

 

[AndrewJohn 8,195]

In developing a lot of products..., I've experienced "feature creep..." to the point of detriment to the organization..., 

 

I am hoping that @Ar9Jim is squirrelling away all these great ideas for Rev 2, 3, 4, 5 down the road, each year.  Jsut my opinion..., but also my hope.  Waiting years for this product to get to market just doesn't make sense, when the demand as a basic integration is there to a HUGE market well beyond Carver audiophiles (simply basing that on how many C-9's sold into non-Carver systems historically, and how much they go for today in the used market).

 

Personally, I'm hoping for a modern-looking current latest implementation (with all the service bulletins and such) of a combo-product of Bob's past most successful inventions - all-in-one.  I really like the idea of having one box, in the processor loop, two switch in and out of circuit these existing components of SH, a TB, and Gundry, and any Bob Carver available icing on the cake (DTL?) that Jim can pull off - without introducing feature creep that shuts down the project before it can get out the door.

 

A superhero to entrepreneurs of all types, a guy named Seth Godin, has coined the phrase "ship it" so you can live to ship future revisions, another day down the road.

 

The initial technologies, SH, etc., are perfected, tried, and true.   And, good enough to "ship it" so we can see Bob Carver Corp., to thrive to ship more things on their list..., like the Tube-based Phono Preamp, like the V12 preamp, ..., like the new PCB-board-based 350 monoblocks..., 

 

..., and if executed well, like I know @Ar9Jim can do, maybe we'll see the holy grail of production Silver 900 Monoblocks come back online.  Yea, THAT would be really cool!

 

Get 'er done, Jim.,

 

 

[jvandyke_texas 432]

Ar9Jim, what exactly is being designed and who is doing it?  What is the purpose?

Lifting the old SH circuit and sticking it into a new box isn't going to cut it.

 

[Ar9Jim 6,112]

20 minutes ago, jvandyke_texas said:

Ar9Jim, what exactly is being designed and who is doing it?  What is the purpose?

Lifting the old SH circuit and sticking it into a new box isn't going to cut it.

 

It's a design that Bob made several years ago. It's purpose is 2 channel stereo SH.. 

 

[jvandyke_texas 432]

It's really stereo side/back channels that create immersion.  If it doesn't have time delayed extra channels, it's incomplete.

 

[Ar9Jim 6,112]

It may be incomplete for someone wanting to run a multi channel system. Bob drew this for 2 channel use.  I'm betting there are enough 2 channel guys remaining to justify it's production. We get calls for the C9 often, even after all these years. Many were disappointed that the V12 didn't have SH included. This is for them.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Ar9Jim

[4krow 5,087]

2 hours ago, jvandyke_texas said:

It's really stereo side/back channels that create immersion.  If it doesn't have time delayed extra channels, it's incomplete.

 

 

 

    What you need my friend is an H-9. That will keep you busy, guaranteed. I think that they are great, but I am strictly a 2 channel guy.