Cartridge loading question

[MRHP 859]

I have a Denon-103 cartridge. Where do I find info on cartridge loading? Or does anyone know off the top of your head what it needs to be set at. I'm playing with my fresh Nelion recapped Sunfire vtcc with a sweet new Nelion phono board. The options are 22, 47, 150, 470, 47k.

 

I'm going to make a post with pics and give a review coming up soon. 

[Sk1Bum 9,280]

A post on theartofsound.com says 10x cartridge resistance is the usual starting point. Denon-103 is 40 ohms, so 400 would be the starting point. The original poster in that thread said his came to life at 1K ohms.

 

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?62918-Denon-DL-103-impedance-load

 

Though there is a bit of disagreement in the thread.

[RodH 4,802]

Sign up on https://www.vinylengine.com/ So much info there.

[AndrewJohn 6,316]

I'm lazy...

 

I have that cartridge...,

 

I just use the ELAC PPA-2 phono-pre to just "dial it in" using my ears...

 

Picked up that unit from our good buddy Jim Clark, over at Jim Clark Stereo (Carver Tube Amp Dealer), here in IL.

 

Never going back to researching loading, finding installation materials, reading tables of 6pt font, setting DIP switches ... LoL. 😉 

[Nahash5150 9,369]

I set the Nelion board to 470Ω by default.

[RodH 4,802]

Denon recommends 100Ω

[BarryG 2,844]

1 hour ago, AndrewJohn said:

I'm lazy...

 

I have that cartridge...,

 

I just use the ELAC PPA-2 phono-pre to just "dial it in" using my ears...

 

Picked up that unit from our good buddy Jim Clark, over at Jim Clark Stereo (Carver Tube Amp Dealer), here in IL.

 

Never going back to researching loading, finding installation materials, reading tables of 6pt font, setting DIP switches ... LoL. 😉 

 

Jim Clark @AR9jim, let me evaluate and review an ELAC PPA2, I kept it!  It does a great job with my 30ohm MC cartridge!  I sounds fantastic, let’s you dial in left and right loading individually, and as your listening!

vinylengine is an excellent resource!
barry

Edited November 1, 2020 by BarryG

[davidc 222]

From Denon's User guide:

 

Load Impedance 100 ohms min. (40 ohms when using a transformer)

 

On my 1980 Pioneer SA-9800 integrated amp, there are also settings for capacitance. Do you have to worry about that?

 

The settings available for moving magnets are:

 

100, 200, 300, 400, 500 pF

 

100, 10k, 25k, 50k, 100k Ohms

 

 

[kve777 6,132]

15 hours ago, davidc said:

From Denon's User guide:

 

Load Impedance 100 ohms min. (40 ohms when using a transformer)

 

On my 1980 Pioneer SA-9800 integrated amp, there are also settings for capacitance. Do you have to worry about that?

 

The settings available for moving magnets are:

 

100, 200, 300, 400, 500 pF

 

100, 10k, 25k, 50k, 100k Ohms

 

 

Capacitance is more dependent on your cables, IIRC.

 

[BarryG 2,844]

Absolutely a factor !

 

[Nahash5150 9,369]

This could be investigated technically, but it seems people are more inclined to the assessment of their ear.

 

Properly understood, all the loading really does is adjust the frequency response of the TT output, particularly in the high frequency range above 10kHz. Setting the load resistance too high will cause a spike in high frequencies right before the 20kHz roll off. This will create a shrill sound. Setting too low will cause a gradual roll off at about 8-10kHz, which will sound muddy or muffled. 

 

Starting at 100ohms for the Denon means going up to 470ohms will have a very small effect, if at all. Going up to 47k ohms will have a major effect, as well as going down too far like 10 ohms. 

 

The Nelion phono board has a 150ohm setting, so that should suffice very well. At the very least a great starting point.

 

Moreover, we shouldn't forget that most pre amp's have tone controls, and if ever there was a good use for them, TT cartridges would qualify exceedingly. So if some strange (or superstitious) reason one doesn't feel comfortable with the loading scheme, the very same effect of dialing the loading can be made much easier, and perhaps more satisfying to certainty, with the tone controls.

 

 

[davidc 222]

4 hours ago, kve777 said:

Capacitance is more dependent on your cables, IIRC.

 

Actually, for a good audio cable it's actually pretty negligible. For a 3-ft long cable, of good quality, you would expect less than 50 pF. However, I don't really know what the recommended loading is for today's phono cartridges, especially moving coil. Back in the day, people rarely used moving coils simply because of their extremely high cost, very delicate nature and the fact that we had plenty of moving magnet cartridges that were outstanding. The selection of cartridges today is dramatically smaller.

 

RIP Shure V15 Type V MR

 

I have two of the above with the stylus in excellent condition, but my guess is the rubber compliance parts after 30-40 years are probably not in good condition.

 

 

 

 

[Nahash5150 9,369]

1 minute ago, davidc said:

Actually, for a good audio cable it's actually pretty negligible. For a 3-ft long cable, of good quality, you would expect less than 50 pF.

 

For most audio signals, this isn't an issue. But a Moving Coil's output is only 0.3mV, with a peak voltage of about 4mV with music dynamics, with a vast array of capacitances and inductances and impedances already inherent in the cartridge. So any cable capacitance will add to the low pass filter that already exists, and with such small voltages, the high gain stage of the phono preamp will amplify everything coming out of the cartridge/cable filter.

 

As I said, this could be investigated technically, but it's complicated, very complicated. I would hate for listeners to be too worried about the cables, but at the same time totally neglect them. Suffice to say, it's important to realize that the sound 'quality' is not the same as the frequency response, in that, a high capacitive cable will cause some kind of intolerable distortion or compression of the dynamic range.

 

There are many things to consider, but I think if we understand that the tweaks we are making for loading is to reach an acceptable frequency response, as opposed to trying to affect the overall quality, we can rest easy.

 

An example of loading:

 

Notice that the major differences exist starting at 8kHz-10kHz, and that some fairly major changes need to occur to make that much of a difference. So cable capacitance shouldn't be too much of a worry if you're using good ones.