One last question. What do you want in a Hi Fi amp?

[Ar9Jim 6,060]

I'm leaving the social media game as I find it toxic as hell over all. It's exhausting and I'm done. If it takes social media games to grow, then we will stay small and continue to have fun doing what we do, not giving a damn about the extremist polarized views in social media. Leaving social media entirely and doing what we do best and ignoring the rest is my choice. It's making me become toxic. Our priority is not trying to make tube amps sound like solid state, chasing the priority of SINAD set by a software designer or anyone else with an oversized ego manipulating his sheep with 'truth.'

Bob made solid state sound like tube amps. We have no desire to make tube amps sound like a Topping for god sake.. There's a full page of Toppings for sale on US Audio Mart right now.. Why is such a highly rated unit for sale in droves for nearly half retail? Very highly rated on ASR. How can the customer be parting ways with such a highly ranked product? They are taking losses on ASR's great performers? How could this be?  https://www.usaudiomart.com/search.php?keywords=topping

 

 

We can bend to the social media BS if that's what it takes to grow.. It's easier and profitable. What's your opinion?

 

(A) We can build Bob Carver designs that sound fucking awesome that are expensive to design and manufacture and remain a small niche company with products too expensive for most.

 

(B) Submit to the social media BS?

What does submitting to the social media BS look like?

It's real easy to submit to the BS.. We are contacted by several Chinees companies that email us every week, offering Topping like products that measure great for about $200. To hell with how they sound, companies are here to make money right, and none of this audio quality matters right? Give the market what it wants or die right?

 

For the cost of developing the new products, we could have purchased many thousand units for stock, that measure just as well as topping, and put the Carver name on them for a wholesale cost of $100 - $200 each.. Talk about easy. Low cost gear that test great as the main priority is not hard. This is exactly the same trap the Carver Corp board fell into, wanting to rebrand products that test well instead of building original Carver designs. The designers priorities were replaced by corporate marketing priorities against Bobs will and what happened? Who cares how it sounds, it test great and we will make nice clean profit. Is that serving the customers best interest? If that's the goal, we are working way too hard and have spent way too much money on development. Just stupid I guess.

 

Maybe that is what people want today? Make it cheap and tell me it sounds the best, because it measures better than tube amplifiers.. OK fine. That makes our job infinitely easier and we will make lots of money on low cost ready made solid state designs. We can buy these cheap. 

 

So that's the question. Buy readily available cheap imports that test great and have Bob Carver silk screened on them, or build the more expensive original Bob Carver designs focused on sound quality?

 

I'm just curious what you think before I close this computer and stop droning.

 

Your opinions are appreciated. 

Management please don't remove this question for fear of upsetting ASR. I won't do it again.

 

Enjoy the music.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ar9Jim

[BobTFM35 1,624]

I wish that I could find the words that convey my feelings in a fluent and persuasive manner.

 

Simple and sweet: I like the MAN, his ideas, his designs, and how; when it is all put together, makes me feel when I turn on my system comprised of his Babies.

 

Better words could be selected but I think you can guess what my feelings are.

 

 

[ChrisTFM35 598]

I want amps that sound good and look cool. Bob Carver checks those boxes.

 

Marantz is another manufacturer that I support - CD player and preamp. Sounds good and looks cool. 

 

 

[3M_Audio 881]

29 minutes ago, Ar9Jim said:

We can bend to the social media BS if that's what it takes to grow.. It's easier and profitable. What's your opinion?

 

 

An interesting question that I've thought about quite a bit over the years. I think it comes down to the company mission.

 

If the goal is maximizing sales and profits, that moves you heavily into price competition for the masses. Quality and near custom-made products will never price compete with slave labor asian rubbish (although to be fair, some of the asian audio stuff can be decent if QC is good). 

 

On the other hand, selling true quality items (and U.S. built) will always have a market, but much smaller - a very different point on the consumer price/quality curve. Sort of a boutique manufacturer. Think Aston Martin...

 

In my experience, the individuals in each camp tend not to mingle too much. For example, for high-end audio I tend to disregard most of what I see on social media - other than maybe if I get a little tickle from an ad to send me off to a legit site where I can get some real info. But I'm not a normal audio consumer - I can't even tell you how many of my young customers have never even heard live music. So pretty hard for them to compare what they hear to anything real. They shop almost entirely for audio product based upon cost, pictures, marketing nonsense, and peer reviews.

 

My company manufactures car speakers and I could make them any way that someone would like with retail prices ranging from $25/pr up to $1000+/pr. $25 would be blood running out of your ears and $1000 would be very, very nice with cast frames and exotic materials/magnets and require corresponding costly electronics to drive them properly. It was a challenge to produce something that really sounded decent with stock & typical aftermarket headunits at a price point that turned a profit and a typical consumer could still afford. So in some product areas I've made some compromises and other in areas I haven't. I guess finding that balance is the magic. But I think I'm doing pretty well and capturing about 60-70% of the customer curve. I don't get the high-end and custom installer stuff or the Walmart shoppers. Almost all our business is referrals from various club forums which Google Adwords helps drive.

 

As I understand it, Bob Carver's goal is your 'A' reference. I'm not sure how profitable that ultimately will be, but I have to believe that worldwide market is big enough. I imagine the trick is finding where those customers are and getting into the communication channels they use. Those channels are probably not most social media. But I think TCS is valid touchpoint.

 

Are there product possibilities/variations that land between A and B? Probably. That would be an interesting discussion.

 

Hopefully this isn't just rambling and there's something useful here.

 

Glenn

 

 

 

[jeffs 2,604]

1 hour ago, Ar9Jim said:

We have no desire to make tube amps sound like a Topping for god sake.. There's a full page of Toppings for sale on US Audio Mart right now.. Why is such a highly rated unit for sale in droves for nearly half retail? Very highly rated on ASR. How can the customer be parting ways with such a highly ranked product? They are taking losses on ASR's great performers? How could this be?  https://www.usaudiomart.com/search.php?keywords=topping

 

I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make here?

 

Your question is in regards to audio amplifiers? Correct? I followed the link that you provided. I reviewed the "categories" of the items listed. Only ONE listing was for an "Amplifier". No price is shown as this is a "Wanted" listing! All of the other "Topping" listings are for items such as DACs, preamps, Headphone Amps, etc.  Fact is, people buy stuff and no longer have a use for it, for a variety of reasons. The result of only 30 listings of Topping products across the board actually seems quite low to me, based on what I would guess is a very high sales volume.  If you turn your search to "Carver" you will find At least as many listings for gear. By your logic, Carver gear must be no good since customers are "parting ways" ........

 

I thoroughly enjoy most of my Carver gear of the 80s. I occasionally replace a unit which means I have one to sell. Does not mean that I didn't appreciate it, just that I no longer need it.

I think Topping makes very good DACs at reasonable prices. I have no knowledge of their other products. A while back I was using a low-end Schitt DAC on my desk/bench. It sounded decent, but the digital noise from the computer USB was beyond noticeable. I also had a low-end Topping DAC available .... sounded great, had more features, and was dead quiet. I couldn't sell the Schiit fast enough.  The opinion was based solely on my personal experience.  I have never bought or sold a product based on a review on ASR ... or anywhere (actually I once bought a pair of speakers based on reviews .... mistake).

 

Just my opinion: In todays economy, people's discretionary spending dollars are limited, probably more so than in the past 15 years, maybe longer. Personally, I've cut way back. Every purchase of this type is going to be thoughtfully considered.

 

Table of Topping gear categories as listed on USAM, per your link:

[Kurt 1,392]

From what I have seen, anyone who would consider buying a tube amp already knows that it's not about the measurements.  I've never owned a tube amp, but I can understand this. It's just like those who swear by vinyl over digital.  There's just something about the sound that is preferable.  At that point, the devices you use to listen to music become part of the art of music.  Good art will never sell in high volumes but can command a high price given enough passionate art lovers who appreciate the piece.  Good art is not made in high volume in China.  

[Ar9Jim 6,060]

41 minutes ago, jeffs said:

 

I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make here?

 

Your question is in regards to audio amplifiers? Correct? I followed the link that you provided. I reviewed the "categories" of the items listed. Only ONE listing was for an "Amplifier". No price is shown as this is a "Wanted" listing! All of the other "Topping" listings are for items such as DACs, preamps, Headphone Amps, etc.  Fact is, people buy stuff and no longer have a use for it, for a variety of reasons. The result of only 30 listings of Topping products across the board actually seems quite low to me, based on what I would guess is a very high sales volume.  If you turn your search to "Carver" you will find At least as many listings for gear. By your logic, Carver gear must be no good since customers are "parting ways" ........

 

I thoroughly enjoy most of my Carver gear of the 80s. I occasionally replace a unit which means I have one to sell. Does not mean that I didn't appreciate it, just that I no longer need it.

I think Topping makes very good DACs at reasonable prices. I have no knowledge of their other products. A while back I was using a low-end Schitt DAC on my desk/bench. It sounded decent, but the digital noise from the computer USB was beyond noticeable. I also had a low-end Topping DAC available .... sounded great, had more features, and was dead quiet. I couldn't sell the Schiit fast enough.  The opinion was based solely on my personal experience.  I have never bought or sold a product based on a review on ASR ... or anywhere (actually I once bought a pair of speakers based on reviews .... mistake).

 

Just my opinion: In todays economy, people's discretionary spending dollars are limited, probably more so than in the past 15 years, maybe longer. Personally, I've cut way back. Every purchase of this type is going to be thoughtfully considered.

 

Table of Topping gear categories as listed on USAM, per your link:

Good point. Not all Topping amps. So your vote is for new gear that is cheap that test great?  I understand that most people are here for the vintage gear info and the economics of it. Very few at TCS have ever bought new products. I like most the people. There has never been a financial motivation here. 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ar9Jim

[Ar9Jim 6,060]

Thanks for the opinions. It's a great day to turn off social media. I'm easy to find by phone or email. Enjoy the Music!

[ChrisTFM35 598]

Judging by the latest Anti-Carver thread on ASR, there's little hope for them to convert. 

[ChrisTFM35 598]

My money is too valuable to waste on stuff that isn't up to my standard. Recently I bought a hunk of shit little do-hickey from Ebay for $49.99. Within a month it was broken. Never again. 

 

I made the decision to move to the Carver Crimson 275.  I ordered the amps after reading all of the threads bashing the amp because of it's test results. It was the most money I've ever spent on this hobby. I appreciated the fact that I can contact Jim and Bob about my gear. Jim can tell you how particular I am about my amps - ordering, shipping, updates, everything. The 275s are the best. I know there's the 285 out there, but for me, the 275s are the last amps I'm ever buying. My ears and my judgement brought me to that conclusion. It's the sound I've wanted. I really don't care about testing.

 

My testing is if Sgt. Pepper sounds good. My testing is if Jimi sounds awesome swirling around that Stratocaster. My testing is if it sounds like John Coltrane is right over there in the corner of my room.

 

@BobTFM35 looked at each other during the testing and evaluation of the amps in amazement at the stuff we've heard. 

 

Carver delivers.

 

Add in the @4krow Tube Buffer and there's really no reason to leave the house. 

 

Don't let the ASR fools upset you!

 

[jeffs 2,604]

 

4 hours ago, Ar9Jim said:

Good point. Not all Topping amps. So your vote is for new gear that is cheap that test great? 

My point was that there were NO Topping amps on your linked list.

 

As far as my "vote" goes, don't twist my post to fit your poll. You clearly did not read my reply in its entirety.

 

I've probably owned more Carver vintage amps and preamps than anyone on this site. My list includes 58 amplifiers. I don't count preamps, but I'd guess it's between 20-25.

It would be interesting  if anyone could top these numbers. Granted - some of these were flips, but none of them were consigned repairs. I purchased, repaired, tested and listened to every one of them. I'm often asked to repair/refurbish other peoples gear and I politely decline. It's not what I do.

I currently own 7 amps and 2 preamps, plus a few units that I have gifted to my adult children. 

I expect these numbers to stay static as I'm not interested in acquiring more gear. There are always exceptions.

 

I've owned ZERO amps of any other make since 2014 or so. I was gifted a vintage Denon integrated which I never intended on keeping and sold after repair. I don't count that one.

 

These are facts. I'm not sure how you equate this to me preferring cheap gear that tests great.

[4krow 5,077]

I am in an unspoken group. My extent of Carver gear has been lean. The C-9, H9-AV, Time Lens, C1, an A220 power amp, and one of the CD players, maybe the 390T. Of those units, two stood out. The A220 and the C-9. The H9-AV was a close second though. Firstly, I realize that the rest of the system either likes these units or doesn't for whatever mismatch, match or whatever. Depending on the Carver model that we are discussing, the quality of the older Carver units ranges quite a bit more than I would like. Reminds me of the later Marantz stuff (1980's) that I wouldn't own. 

 Funny to admit, but in between and here and there, I have owned some Chinese or other low quality builds. I can't figure it out but every now and then one of them would sound great. In fact, if they offered it in quality build, it would probably be in my system now. But I cannot or will not own junk even if I like the sound. I am not happy if something is little, light, and has bunch of crap jammed into it. 

 Because of that thinking, I would be happier with the heavier 285 Carver power amp, and that is assuming all things being equal.

 

 Jim, I am with you about social media here. There are plenty of forums or websites that I avoid because of how things and topics are handled. It frustrates me and that makes no sense to me, so I leave. If I were in your position I would be beyond frustration. But from my perspective I don't really have to sell anyone on the type of oil in my car, the certain way that my attic is insulated, the gun that I like to own and so much more. If I had to put any of that out there, the instant shit show would occur. 

 

  Last year was it? When the raffle was going on for that Carver power amp, I actually did hope to win it, but the reason for the raffle was well worth it to me too. I wanted to hear what people were talking about. But you know, I would just as soon buy a different set of drivers for my speaker cabinets just to acoustically match the cabinets a bit better. Yup, I am all over the map. I am too old to be a cheerleader for any one brand.... Just a few that still know how to make quality equipment. 

[Ratamahatta 425]

  I hear you on the toxic social media, I have left many forums because of that very reason, and not just audio forums. And I can't stand those people that "look at the numbers" and don't even have to listen to it.  Human ears are the best final instruments to evaluate how something sounds.  And I get really tired of this "one size fits all" for something so subjective to individual tastes. 

  Carver should be original designs that sound extraordinary period. There are a plethora of cheap Chinese companies that do " measures great" but sound less than stellar geared for the home theater crowd. 

  I don't own any Carver gear at this time but the stuff I had I was thoroughly impressed with. The AL III plus is ultimately why I gave up the Polk SDA's. And my first real introduction into higher end audio gear. 

 I am glad I am content for the time being with my audio world. Take care. 

 

[Ar9Jim 6,060]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:47 PM, jeffs said:

 

My point was that there were NO Topping amps on your linked list.

 

As far as my "vote" goes, don't twist my post to fit your poll. You clearly did not read my reply in its entirety.

 

I've probably owned more Carver vintage amps and preamps than anyone on this site. My list includes 58 amplifiers. I don't count preamps, but I'd guess it's between 20-25.

It would be interesting  if anyone could top these numbers. Granted - some of these were flips, but none of them were consigned repairs. I purchased, repaired, tested and listened to every one of them. I'm often asked to repair/refurbish other peoples gear and I politely decline. It's not what I do.

I currently own 7 amps and 2 preamps, plus a few units that I have gifted to my adult children. 

I expect these numbers to stay static as I'm not interested in acquiring more gear. There are always exceptions.

 

I've owned ZERO amps of any other make since 2014 or so. I was gifted a vintage Denon integrated which I never intended on keeping and sold after repair. I don't count that one.

 

These are facts. I'm not sure how you equate this to me preferring cheap gear that tests great.

Thanks to those who participated. 

Jeffs, that is great. Most people with vintage Carver gear love it as do I.

I would never try to twist your post to fit the pole. I was just asking a question that had nothing to do with how much vintage Carver gear you own. It's wonderful that you have experience and share with others hear on TCS.. The question was entirely hypothetical, about gear that doesn't even exist. I'm not sure how that could be offensive. It's not binding, it was just asking a simple question about peoples opinion of what they would like to see in the future. You came to the defense of the Topping so I assumed you leaned that way, so I asked again with a question to clarify. Is that twisting words, dude? Honestly?  Now if I get defensive here on TCS, even so far as ASR is concerned than I'm a problem here and negative. Thank you for the social media example. I consider it a parting gift. 

So with that the last posted question has concluded. 

[xavionics 1,406]

One thing the military teaches (or at least, taught) is this:

 

Praise in public, criticize in private.

 

The “mainstream” audio press follows this rule. They have to, their lives depend on it.

To explain - when I have read negative comments made regarding a product, they include mention of the reviewer reaching out to the manufacturer for clarification and/or even another copy of the product to test.

They give the product’s manufacturer an opportunity to rectify the reviewer’s negative findings.

This is fair. It is also rather rare in my experience, but it happens and is dealt with fairly.

ASR (and others) don’t appear to understand this. At least I have seen no evidence of it in my admittedly small exposure to them. 
Because they do not (seem to) contact anyone for clarification, their integrity is compromised in my eyes.

I would also consider their followers’ integrity compromised as well.

 

This seems to be common everywhere on the internet.
Folks being incognito behind a false persona makes it easy to lash out with little to no consequence. 

Maybe it strokes their ego. Maybe they are completely unaware. 
But they do leave their mark on someone somewhere. 

 

In conclusion, I really do enjoy the sound of the current Carver products. 
I’ve had the fortune to spend many hours listening to each of them.

No matter what the SINAD says….😎

 

[4krow 5,077]

I would like to add an observation about a policy that I try to follow. It is pretty general. When asked, you can comment diplomatically and still make the point. Moreover, it makes less sense to criticize that which cannot be changed, such as a person's height. The clothes that they choose to wear gives latitude however.

 

 Yes, this applies elsewhere, especially when asked. "How would you like your amp sir?" "Bottles or sand?" 

 

 Jim, I have a former friend who had good intention but a poor way of expressing himself. Or was he just playing a game? You see, he could be diplomatic, but he also was the master of left-handed compliments. Sorry, I must make clear that I am not referring to what has been said in this thread (so why post here? It hit a nerve). In my former friend's case, he seemed to think that I didn't know the difference.

 

  I am the first to admit that I am way too sensitive, and it is my loss more often than one might think. Especially when you make a product and then put it out there for all to see. You will hear BS both ways. Some will cheer it on like high school cheerleaders. Others will throw stones as if it were to be a poor attempt just because it is different (genius). Still others may give their honest opinion diplomatically.

Edited November 26, 2023 by 4krow
I fainted again

[Dadvw 2,807]

When I first got interested in audio, the looks of the gear and the sound is what caught my attention.  When I was able to afford nice gear (brand name), my ear is still what drove my choice to purchase.  Did I look at the specs, sure.  Did they matter that much, not really.  My ears and the looks of the gear is what drove the purchase.  I appreciate Bob's ideas and designs, I like the looks, and the sound....well that's why I own them.  Now, as I am older (61), the nostalgia adds a factor to the decision.    As with tube amps, Bob's Black Magic 25 with KT120 tubes is the best sounding tube amp I have heard.  I like the tube sound better than solid state and I have listened to solid state most of my life.  And do I need to mention looks......grin.  So, for me, since I can afford it, I would rather have a quality sounding piece of gear that looks great instead of something cheap.  Price is not the driver for me, it's value that determines the dollars spent.

[Lyle Kirkpatrick 42]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:04 AM, ChrisTFM35 said:

I want amps that sound good and look cool. Bob Carver checks those boxes.

 

Marantz is another manufacturer that I support - CD player and preamp. Sounds good and looks cool. 

 

 

 

On 11/24/2023 at 7:12 AM, Ar9Jim said:

I'm leaving the social media game as I find it toxic as hell over all. It's exhausting and I'm done. If it takes social media games to grow, then we will stay small and continue to have fun doing what we do, not giving a damn about the extremist polarized views in social media. Leaving social media entirely and doing what we do best and ignoring the rest is my choice. It's making me become toxic. Our priority is not trying to make tube amps sound like solid state, chasing the priority of SINAD set by a software designer or anyone else with an oversized ego manipulating his sheep with 'truth.'

Bob made solid state sound like tube amps. We have no desire to make tube amps sound like a Topping for god sake.. There's a full page of Toppings for sale on US Audio Mart right now.. Why is such a highly rated unit for sale in droves for nearly half retail? Very highly rated on ASR. How can the customer be parting ways with such a highly ranked product? They are taking losses on ASR's great performers? How could this be?  https://www.usaudiomart.com/search.php?keywords=topping

 

 

We can bend to the social media BS if that's what it takes to grow.. It's easier and profitable. What's your opinion?

 

(A) We can build Bob Carver designs that sound fucking awesome that are expensive to design and manufacture and remain a small niche company with products too expensive for most.

 

(B) Submit to the social media BS?

What does submitting to the social media BS look like?

It's real easy to submit to the BS.. We are contacted by several Chinees companies that email us every week, offering Topping like products that measure great for about $200. To hell with how they sound, companies are here to make money right, and none of this audio quality matters right? Give the market what it wants or die right?

 

For the cost of developing the new products, we could have purchased many thousand units for stock, that measure just as well as topping, and put the Carver name on them for a wholesale cost of $100 - $200 each.. Talk about easy. Low cost gear that test great as the main priority is not hard. This is exactly the same trap the Carver Corp board fell into, wanting to rebrand products that test well instead of building original Carver designs. The designers priorities were replaced by corporate marketing priorities against Bobs will and what happened? Who cares how it sounds, it test great and we will make nice clean profit. Is that serving the customers best interest? If that's the goal, we are working way too hard and have spent way too much money on development. Just stupid I guess.

 

Maybe that is what people want today? Make it cheap and tell me it sounds the best, because it measures better than tube amplifiers.. OK fine. That makes our job infinitely easier and we will make lots of money on low cost ready made solid state designs. We can buy these cheap. 

 

So that's the question. Buy readily available cheap imports that test great and have Bob Carver silk screened on them, or build the more expensive original Bob Carver designs focused on sound quality?

 

I'm just curious what you think before I close this computer and stop droning.

 

Your opinions are appreciated. 

Management please don't remove this question for fear of upsetting ASR. I won't do it again.

 

Enjoy the music.

 

 

!00% agreed Jim!