Speaker placement question

[Dadvw 2,877]

I have a long winded question here. 
Obviously speaker placement is very important in the quality of the sound from your system. I have only realized this within the last couple of years after reading various articles about it. I didn’t know any of this when I started this journey in the 80’s.

So there are different methods to setting your speakers up; the bass method, the triangle method, imaging method,.....etc. 

So my question is, when placing the speakers for “proper imaging”, what are you listening for to determine “proper” placement?

[Maddmaster 1,001]

I listen for a nice strong bass first. Then I focus on the sound stage. I miss and highs fall in place when you find the sound stage and imaging that is closest to what you’re listening for.

[Daddyjt 9,633]

Don’t over think it. 
 

I sit 1.5 x the distance between the speakers away from the front plane of the speaker cabinets. 
If the speakers have a rear-firing port, tweeter or passive radiator, bring them at least 2’ out from the front wall.

I find toe-in enhances imaging, but usually at the cost of sound stage width/depth. 
 

There ARE exceptions - Bose, Ribbons, Electro-stats, etc. 

 

the biggest thing - play around with different setups...  there are no rules!

 

[Dadvw 2,877]

1 hour ago, Daddyjt said:

Don’t over think it. 
 

I sit 1.5 x the distance between the speakers away from the front plane of the speaker cabinets. 
If the speakers have a rear-firing port, tweeter or passive radiator, bring them at least 2’ out from the front wall.

I find toe-in enhances imaging, but usually at the cost of sound stage width/depth. 
 

There ARE exceptions - Bose, Ribbons, Electro-stats, etc. 

 

the biggest thing - play around with different setups...  there are no rules!

 

I guess I am trying to understand what to listen for so it sounds good. What I have learned in my setup so far is I am about where you are in the sweet spot. What I am hearing as the “image” is when they are adjusted about 14” from the back wall with a rear port, I hear the vocals in the center of the space between the speakers, and I hear the music fill in that space too and I don’t hear it coming out of the speakers anymore. Is this what they are calling image?

Before this, I always heard the music coming directly from the speakers.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Dadvw

[PMAT 2,041]

To answer that directly, listen for a clear center image. Does the vocal sound like it’s centered between the speakers? Most recordings have the vocalist centered. If not, first make sure the polarity of the speaker wires are correct. If one is backwards the image will collapse. 

[PMAT 2,041]

Yes, that is imaging.

[Dadvw 2,877]

1 minute ago, PMAT said:

To answer that directly, listen for a clear center image. Does the vocal sound like it’s centered between the speakers? Most recordings have the vocalist centered. If not, first make sure the polarity of the speaker wires are correct. If one is backwards the image will collapse. 

Yes, vocals are center and polarities of everything is correct.

[Rob 6,007]

Have fun with this one.  Get the tape measure out and an adjustable chair.  A lot of it has to do with type of speakers and manufacturers recommendations. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Rob

[4krow 6,621]

I musta done something right. I have never been happier wit the sound of my system. I really didn't do a lot of experiments with speaker placement only because of the limited options that my room has. What I do, is that if there is going to be a serious session, then I will bring out different pillows on chairs, and drape a large memory foam sheet over the love seat. 

  Yes, try to get the most pleasurable sound by placement that you can, and then adjust for living with it. Using Stereophile test recording or something similar will assist in getting it best for your environment. The fact that you do not hear music coming from the speaker itself is a big step of this process. Also in my case, I have mono volume controls due to the acoustics of my room. Such things really matter as adjust the volume, there comes a point where the sound is right and fuller. 

[Dadvw 2,877]

19 hours ago, Rob said:

Have fun with this one.  Get the tape measure out and an adjustable chair.  A lot of it has to do with type of speakers and manufacturers recommendations. 

Manufacturers recommendations are a minimum of 8” from the rear wall and no mention of toe in. Right now they are straight, 14” from the wall. Image is what I have heard before, need more time to play with the position of the speakers and see how it affects the image I hear.......grin

[4krow 6,621]

Dude there are no mistakes here until you can't undo something. I am still shaking my head over how good a set of speakers that I made for a friend of mine sounded just propped up on a coffee table. Really, it made no sense. Of course, I realize and practice all that I feel like practicing in my listening room just so I can at least count on hearing music well enough be moved by it. At this point I am beyond satisfied and mostly am amazed... and moved.

 You will get there I have no doubt, but enjoy a few 'this is a crazy idea' things along the way. It will help you find your preference and maybe a reference point of sorts for where you want to be in the end. I will enjoy seeing where this leads you.

[Dadvw 2,877]

Right now, for good smooth bass response, they are 12” away from the wall and straight, no toe in. Vocals are center (used a Diana Krall cd for test) and music is in between the speakers. Engaging SH shatters the image. Speakers are about 10ft apart. Only had a short time to play today. 

[4krow 6,621]

Yes, 10' apart may work well for some stereo effect, but definitely not a good start for SH. Try starting at 6-7' apart. Just as important is the need for these speakers to be as close as possible (within 1/4") equal distance from the listening position. For example my speakers are 6 1/2' feet apart from one another, and 90 3/8" each from my listening position. They are only about 20" from the wall. Also, they are toed in just enough that the side panel of each speaker still can be seen.

Edited December 24, 2020 by 4krow
didn't proof read

[Powerchord 23]

I'm following this topic. I have a set of AL-III's and am powering them with two Silver 7 Mono blocks. I have placed them in every which way I can and it doesn't seem to change all that much. I have added a Sub-One powered woofer for a little rumble on the low end. My listening room is quite large so I have lots of options. One thing I don't understand is that the AL's were designed to send signal out the rear of the ribbon. I'm hearing that you should treat the back walls and sides to muffle that signal. In my mind, that's going against Bob's original design. I might add that the sound quality is very good. But am I missing something to make it better?

~ Terry

[Daddyjt 9,633]

3 minutes ago, Powerchord said:

I'm following this topic. I have a set of AL-III's and am powering them with two Silver 7 Mono blocks. I have placed them in every which way I can and it doesn't seem to change all that much. I have added a Sub-One powered woofer for a little rumble on the low end. My listening room is quite large so I have lots of options. One thing I don't understand is that the AL's were designed to send signal out the rear of the ribbon. I'm hearing that you should treat the back walls and sides to muffle that signal. In my mind, that's going against Bob's original design. I might add that the sound quality is very good. But am I missing something to make it better?

~ Terry

I too had a pair of the ALIII (they are my son’s now). No matter what I did, I just could not fall in love with them. To my ears, they lacked the “exciting” sound that (I think) comes from a mix of dynamic range, a solid low end, and crystal clear highs. I don’t know what specifically they lacked, but they were just never exciting...  My point is, maybe it’s not a placement issue, or a you issue - it just might be the speakers... My son loves them, but he listens to a lot of jazz, which isn’t really that demanding on speakers.

[4krow 6,621]

How many times were we supposed to be impressed, either by what we did, what we bought, or what we made. Once the honeymoon was over (It doesn't always happen), reality begged us to reconsider.

[Daddyjt 9,633]

28 minutes ago, 4krow said:

How many times were we supposed to be impressed, either by what we did, what we bought, or what we made...

Hmmm... Let me count....

 

Wait, I lost track - let me start again....

 

Well shit, - Yea....

 

One of the best lessons I learned in my work career that translates very well to this hobby is the “Fail Fast” principal. If you try something and it doesn’t work, fail fast and move on - admit that it wasn’t to be, vs spending precious time twisting against the wind. 

[cuda 526]

One of the worst things that can happen to you is getting the super sweet spot and then for no other reason other than thinking there might even be a sweeter spot that is being missed out on you move things  just a little bit and then can never get the super sweet spot back. Even the tape on the floor doesn't do it, it is gone and you have to start all over lol

[Sk1Bum 11,490]

My Martin Logans are 3' apart, about 20" from the back wall, and about 4' from the side walls.. The back wall has sponge rubber treatments. They also have a Martin Logan 1000w subwoofer.  Imaging with them is entirely recording dependent, and the same with Sonic Holography. On well done recordings, the image expands well beyond the side walls. It's not particularly deep though. 

 

The NHTs are the front left/right channels in my home theater, and they're about 6' apart. They are less than 3" from the back wall as per the owners manual, and about 3' from the side walls. They image very well, and the image is much more 3 dimensional than the Martin Logans. The Martin Logan image is much wider, especially with Sonic Holography engaged. I don't have SH in the chain on the Home Theater, but when I was auditioning the NHTs at the previous owners, SH expanded the image on them tremendously. 

 

If you have a C1, C11, C4000, 4000t, C9, or any Carver pre that is SH capable, there's probably a section in the owners manual regarding SH and the proper speaker placement for it.

 

I hope that helps.

[Daddyjt 9,633]

1 hour ago, cuda said:

One of the worst things that can happen to you is getting the super sweet spot and then for no other reason other than thinking there might even be a sweeter spot that is being missed out on you move things  just a little bit and then can never get the super sweet spot back. Even the tape on the floor doesn't do it, it is gone and you have to start all over lol

Kind of along that same line: 

 

I threw this system together along one of the side walls in my old HT back in MT to test a 500t mkii I did for someone (probably @Sk1Bum ).  Carver 490t (I don’t know what tubes, it came from @Gene C ) into a BillD C1, into a 500t mkii, running the Klipsch RF7 pair.  With good (actually GREAT) source material, this system was spectacular - on poor recordings, it was mediocre at best.  I could never recapture that particular magic. It’s the only time the Klipsch pair sounded musical, and they knocked it out of the park. I’m sure it had something to do with the room acoustics, but the same setup falls flat anywhere else I try to set it up...
 

 

[PMAT 2,041]

I could only get the AL threes to play better in a smaller room. Mine had the original woofers and they couldn’t load a bigger room in the bass. If I owned a pair now I would convert them into silver ‘s. I could build a baffle and buy all the rest of the parts, using those wonderful ribbons.