Chasing bass

[Daddyjt 9,584]

The rebuild of my HT after the flood of 2023 was just recently completed a couple months ago.  As I was rebuilding it anyway, I decided it was a good time to transition to a 4K Atmos 7.2.4 setup, from my previous 1080p 7.1 setup.  As part of this change, virtually all of my components changed - in fact, only my trusty Oppo 105D made the cut to the new system (playing FLAC and DVDA, which the 4k Atmos Panasonic won’t play).

 

I also pulled the Velodyne DD18, and added 2x SVS SB4000 subs.  This is where the headaches started.  
 

Headache #1 - In order to get the Marantz SR6015 receiver to apply the Audyssey calibration to the subs correctly, the main speakers must be set to “small” - even though my RF7 mains are more than capable of playing down to 40hz.

 

Headache #2 - Integrating two subs is a royal PITA.  do you tune them together or separate?  Do you make adjustments in the Marantz, or in the EQ suite of each sub via the mobile App?  
 

Headache #3 - what frequencies do you boost for the “punch” of movies, and then how do you restore some sense of fidelity for music listening?

 

As a solution to all of these headaches, I purchased a Velodyne SMS-1 on the local classifieds. Anyone that has used one of Velodyne’s DD series subs has experienced the electronic tuning interface.  It’s a brilliant system that feeds a sweep tone (and on-screen GUI) into an input of your pre/receiver, then utilizes a microphone to measure the sweep tone, displays the results on screen and allows a plethora of adjustments via an 8 band parametric EQ.  The SMS-1 takes this electronics suite and puts it in a stand-alone component that goes in the equipment rack (mine is on top of the power conditioner on the left).

 

Well….  Even with the SMS-1, I wasn’t getting anywhere near the bass response I wanted.  My frequency graph looked more like a hockey player smile than anything resembling a straight line, and I had no “punch” or “impact”.  So I decided to move my Velodyne DD18 into the room (back left corner), bringing me to 3 subs in a 17’ X 13’ room.  The DD18 has its own electronics suite, so I just fed it from one of the “through” outputs of the SMS-1.  I set the DD18 low pass at 45hz - just looking for it to fill in the lowest of the Lows.  I was still not getting what I wanted, when it hit me - phasing.  I have the Klipsch RF7 mains playing down to 60hz, the SVS pair playing up to 80hz, and the DD18 playing below 45hz.  So I switched the SVS pair 180 degrees out of phase.  Boom - everything fell into place.  I now have a VERY flat bass curve.  I “think” that the SVS pair is now cancelling out any overlap they have with the RF7 mains, and the DD18 is cancelling out its overlap with the SVS pair.

 

another benefit of the SMS-1 is SIX (6) presets. So for movies, I have a couple settings with various bumps at 40hz, 50hz and 60hz, and for music a couple that are pretty flat.

 

heres the curve (I didn’t take a shot of the pre-phase shift, but trust me - it was BAD…

 

 

 

 

[Retriever 1,127]

Nice work glad you got the results you wanted. When I moved into a smaller house the low bass really dried up in a smaller room.  More subs made it too boomy so my main room is subless but the TFM 45 brought the thump out. I seldom watch movies with surround these days just listen old  music.

 

I put a competion Kicker sub in my pontoon with 500 watt rms amplifier.

still not deep enough bass played with equalization thinking I might have to make my own cabinet to be happy.  Maybe I'm spoiled as I put a sunfire in the boat on an extension cord and it sounded awesome. Hard to swim with it though. Also have 150x4 rms on the 4 marine spreakers which give good mid to highs.

Edited January 31 by Retriever
info

[PhilDent 1,958]

Your component rack is different than the custom one I remember. Did you make this one or buy it?

[Daddyjt 9,584]

2 minutes ago, PhilDent said:

Your component rack is different than the custom one I remember. Did you make this one or buy it?

The old one was too wide to accommodate the dual subs up front, so I had to make a new one. 3/4” oak plywood stained black with 5/8” threaded rod supports.  The center channel tweeter is EXACTLY the same height as the mains (I’ve learned that this is one of the most important elements of a cohesive front stage).

[jeffs 3,226]

Awesome setup.

[BobTFM35 2,767]

@Daddyjt Nice clean looking setup and perfect timing on this subject and equipment setup.

 

I have the SR5015.

 

From new the 5015 did not come with a paper copy of the manual. I was able to find an eBay printer merchant to get me a paper copy. A lot of reading has gotten me closer than I was ever before with my initial setup. It sounded much better but needed a little more tweaks.

 

I'm starting over with the set up and your sub crossover information is a prompt to revisit that area. I'm resetting the crossover frequency and running the setup mode again.

 

In my original setup I had the main speakers set as small and kept all the others in their default settings as small.

 

I'm currently using seven (7) speakers of which two are up firing Klipsch RP-500SA mounted atop the front left and right speakers. The surround rear speakers are dipoles. No in ceiling speakers. The sub is a newer Sunfire model.

 

Question:

Is your subwoofer mode set to LFE(default) or LFE+Main?

Are your rear speakers also Klipsch?

 

 

 

Edited January 31 by BobTFM35

[PMAT 2,037]

Should be enough bass power to do the hair storm on a young lady. I can't believe you can get 3 big subs in that room size and get it to work at all. Bravo

[4krow 6,513]

I gave my SMS-1 to a good friend as I had no need for it, and I miss it already! Of course, he loves the thing, since he has never really had good bass to begin with. This is a very valuable audio tool.

[Daddyjt 9,584]

2 hours ago, BobTFM35 said:

@Daddyjt Nice clean looking setup and perfect timing on this subject and equipment setup.

 

I have the SR5015.

 

From new the 5015 did not come with a paper copy of the manual. I was able to find an eBay printer merchant to get me a paper copy. A lot of reading has gotten me closer than I was ever before with my initial setup. It sounded much better but needed a little more tweaks.

 

I'm starting over with the set up and your sub crossover information is a prompt to revisit that area. I'm resetting the crossover frequency and running the setup mode again.

 

In my original setup I had the main speakers set as small and kept all the others in their default settings as small.

 

I'm currently using seven (7) speakers of which two are up firing Klipsch RP-500SA mounted atop the front left and right speakers. The surround rear speakers are dipoles. No in ceiling speakers. The sub is a newer Sunfire model.

 

Question:

Is your subwoofer mode set to LFE(default) or LFE+Main?

Are your rear speakers also Klipsch?

 

 

 

I currently have the subs set to LFE+main, but I am going to switch back to just LFE, and set the fronts to LARGE and see what happens. It really bothers me to have the mains (RF7) set to small - especially as efficient as they are (101db) and the fact that they are being driven by a 500t MKII. 
 

My surrounds and back surrounds are Klipsch RR 500SA (I had RS7 x4, but 2 of them were damaged in the flood, so I went with 4x of the 500SA).  The 4 ceiling speakers are Klipsch 8” in walls - not sure the model.   All surrounds are running off a Parasound Z-12. 8 channels are bridged to 4 @ 100w for the surrounds and back surrounds, the other 4 channels are pushing 50w to each of the 4 ceiling Atmos speakers (Parasound watts are much like Carver watts - you get more than the number implies, lol).  The other 500t MKII is running the center in “power steering” mode. 

[Daddyjt 9,584]

1 hour ago, PMAT said:

Should be enough bass power to do the hair storm on a young lady. I can't believe you can get 3 big subs in that room size and get it to work at all. Bravo

yea, I can certainly pressurize the room, lol. I was playing the Titanic 4k disc last night, during the sinking - the groans and creeks were awe inspiring, and a bit scary…

[Daddyjt 9,584]

1 hour ago, 4krow said:

I gave my SMS-1 to a good friend as I had no need for it, and I miss it already! Of course, he loves the thing, since he has never really had good bass to begin with. This is a very valuable audio tool.

The good news is that they pop up frequently for right around $300.  I know that the mini-DSP is capable of the same thing (I have one on the shelf), but the build quality, user interface, and rack presence (looks) all tilt heavily in the SMS-1’s favor. 

[BobTFM35 2,767]

@Daddyjt Thanks Mark for the information that you provided. I love the choice of equipment that you described and especially love the Parasound Z-12 and the RP-500SA's. I only have two 500SA's. All my amps are Carver TFM's with a lone 7t.

 

When initially setting up the new SR5015, and using the built in Audyssey , I too was swayed to set my front speakers to small.  Although it sounded way better than my previous AV preamp it did not feel right in the lower regions ie Bass.

 

Like you it's going to require a little more seat time to dial things in with my present equipment, not only for movies but for playing Atmos related music. Switching to playing Atmos related music revealed some holes in my setup which I also need to look into.

 

My initial Audyssey channel level adjustment settings were not available when I switched to playing Atmos music. All settings were 0 and I manually input the values that I recorded during the setup routine, but I think they need to be further adjusted.

 

Thanks

[Daddyjt 9,584]

Well.

 

 

If a little (or a lot) is good, then a whole lot more is great.  Right?

 

 

In the case of bass in my HT, the answer is a resounding YES!  I had my 2nd Velodyne DD18 just sitting around collecting dust. It got wet in the flood about a year and a half ago, and to be honest I was afraid to plug it in.  With some of the proceeds from selling my 2nd pair of Silver 9ts, I sent the plate amp off to EBC in New Jersey. They are reasonable ($400) for plate amp repair/refresh, and do great work.  Even if it wasn’t damaged, the amp is getting on past the 30 year old mark, and due for some attention. 
 

Well, I got the amp back a couple days ago, so today was the day.  Had a bit of a panic and detour that I’ll detail in another thread, but after some ingenuity I got it up and running.  I now have a 7.4.4 HT system, with two SVS SB4000 and TWO Velodyne DD18.  Don’t get me wrong, the SVS are very nice and stout subs, but the Velodyne DD series…. They are on a whole different level.  An 18” Kevlar cone (that’s just about 255sq inches) with a TWO INCH peak to peak excursion, and a 1,500 class D amp… they move some air. By comparison, the SVS uses a 13” driver (133sq inches) with a 1.25” excursion.

 

playing Top Gun Maverick, Lord of the Rings (the underground battle) and Days Of Thunder (all on 4k), I’m in bass heaven. The two Velodyne subs are kind of hidden behind the seating, but they make their presence known when called upon….

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilDent 1,958]

Damn! If it’s worth doing - it’s worth overdoing!  Well done my friend. I don’t remember any lack of bass in your pre-flood HT setup. I can’t imagine how good it sounds now. I think an in person audition is in order.

[treitz3 53]

Mark, raise the two front subs up to tweeter level. You can thank me later.

 

Tom

[Daddyjt 9,584]

1 hour ago, treitz3 said:

Mark, raise the two front subs up to tweeter level. You can thank me later.

 

Tom

Dude - do you know how heavy those things are??  I’d have to build a TANK of a stand - x2….  In all seriousness, what benefit would I see (hear)?

Edited May 4 by Daddyjt

[Daddyjt 9,584]

2 hours ago, PhilDent said:

Damn! If it’s worth doing - it’s worth overdoing!  Well done my friend. I don’t remember any lack of bass in your pre-flood HT setup. I can’t imagine how good it sounds now. I think an in person audition is in order.

I couldn’t agree more - on all counts.  The guest room is yours any time you want… I’ve also got that bottle of Blanton’s that needs to be opened…!

[Sk1Bum 11,368]

25 minutes ago, Daddyjt said:

Dude - do you know how heavy those things are??  I’d have to build a TANK of a stand - x2….  In all seriousness, what benefit would I see (hear)?

 

I think they're around 65 lbs.

 

Oh, have you seen the new subs from SVS? The R|Evolution series: PB17-Ultra, SB17-Ultra, PB-5000, and SB-5000. Ranging in price from $1999 - $2999.

 

https://www.svsound.com/collections/subwoofers?filter.p.tag=5000+R|Evolution&filter.p.tag=17+Ultra+R|Evolution&filter.v.price.lte=3000&sort_by=best-selling

 

 

[AndrewJohn 10,412]

8 hours ago, Daddyjt said:

Dude - do you know how heavy those things are??  I’d have to build a TANK of a stand - x2….  In all seriousness, what benefit would I see (hear)?

 

I was thinking old Circus Elephant Stands..., they come up from time to time here in WI around Baraboo, at garage sales..., oddly.  (Baraboo was summer HQ for Ringling Brothers...)  In the early days of the circus, elephant stands were just half-whiskey-barrels.  With the bands on, they are still stout.  To get to tweeter level, one would need a whole barrel, I suppose.

 

I have to say, I want to try this.

 

@Rob and I went to the SVS room at AXPONA.  Their 18" sub was about 5 ft to my 11:00 from where I was sitting.  I was wearing some heavy Carhart dungarees..., and that sub was moving the loose material around my ankle..., serious movement - like flapping heavy duck material in the wind.  I'm guessing one might "feel" the subs more "in-your-face" with tweeter-level placement?  I dunno, I gotta' try it.

 

But, you're right, engineering is required.  My two Carver Knight Shadow subs walk across the room, on carpet, with spikes..., putting them at tweeter level..., well, you know, "movement..."

[Rob 5,942]

@AndrewJohn yeh, those subs were ridiculous. I will go to the United Audio store here and listen to them in a bigger room and different environment. They were definitely impressive!