Toe-in or not?

[dcl 3,276]

Being so long since buying as new the ALS Silver IV, having tossed the boxes after moving & missing the Carver instructions, I forget whether toe-in is recommended on set-up. The review in Sensible Sound points out that toe-in is not advocated. Just curious as to the reason & how many here toe-in -vs- not toe-in. My set-up has them 3 feet away from the back wall and as of this morning no toe-in. 

[Gene C 1,748]

Not to thread jack but I'm glad you posted this dcl. This question on my Kappa 9's caused me to do a search. Turns out manufacture of Infinity recomends speakers facing forward but people do toe them in but not recommended. Same may or may not be true with yours. Have you tried both aspects yet. Going to try that myself when I get home and see what I come up with. I'm sure someone else will chime in with their experience. Very interesting.

[Reese 52]

I have the Amazing Originals upgraded to Platinum and external crossovers/each speaker bi-ampled, not the Silvers. But yes, the Carver instruction manual does show toe-in setup in relation to the listening point. On the other hand, it's a matter of taste and maybe if you have Sonic Holography set up too . A friend here with much technical/experience in movie soundtrack processing/theater setup insists (but leaves it up to my discretion) that no-toe-in puts the music out into theater seats better. Of course, my living room is not a cavernous movie theater either.... I've tried both ways - not sure that my results are typical - but I kinda went back to toe-in (front of speakers perpendicular to listener's ears/position) per Carver diagrams just because it seems to focus the soundstage for me the best -- and I'm using mine about 3' out from back walls, away from side walls, and listening point about 12' from speakers. Other people auditioning this system are blown away with sound quality and the imaging. Results speak for themselves in my situation; your mileage may vary of course.

 

Reese

[Daddyjt 9,648]

Here's a good snippet from The Absolute Sound a few years back....

 

Rule O: Toe-in (angling the loudspeakers toward the listener) affects tonal balance, soundstage width, and image focus.

 

Toe-in is pointing the loudspeakers inward toward the listener rather than facing them straight ahead (see Fig. 3). There are no rules for toe-in; the optimum amount varies greatly with the loudspeaker and the listening room. Some loudspeakers need toe-in; others work best firing straight ahead. Toe-in affects many aspects of the musical presentation, including mid- and high-frequency balance, soundstage focus, sense of spaciousness, and immediacy.

 

12-3-toe-in.jpg

 

Most loudspeakers sound the brightest directly on-axis (directly in front of the loudspeaker). Toe-in therefore increases the amount of treble heard at the listening seat. An overly bright loudspeaker can often be tamed by pointing the loudspeaker straight ahead. Some models, designed for listening without toe-in, are far too bright on-axis.

 

A toed-in loudspeaker will present more direct energy to the listener and project less energy into the room, where it might reach the listener only after reflecting from room surfaces. As well see later in this chapter, sound reflected from the sidewalls to the listening positions can degrade sound quality. Toe-in often increases soundstage focus and image specificity. When toed-in, many loudspeakers provide a more focused and sharply delineated soundstage. Images are more clearly defined, compact, and tight, rather than diffuse and lacking a specific spatial position. The optimum toe-in is often a trade-off between too much treble and a strong central image. With lots of toe-in, the soundstage snaps into focus, but the presentation is often too bright. With no toe-in, the treble balance is smoother, but the imaging is more vague.

 

Toe-in also affects the presentations overall spaciousness. No toe-in produces a larger, more billowy, less precise soundstage. Instruments are less clearly delineated, but the presentation is bigger and more expansive. Toeing-in the loudspeakers shrinks the apparent size of the soundstage, but allows more precise image localization. Again, the proper amount of toe-in depends on the loudspeaker, room, and personal preference. Theres no substitute for listening, adjusting toe-in, and listening again.

Identical toe-in for each loudspeaker is vital. This is most easily accomplished by measuring the distances from the rear wall to each of the loudspeakers rear edges; these distances will differ according to the degree of toe-in. Repeat this procedure on the other loudspeaker, adjusting its toe-in so that the distances match those of the first loudspeaker. Another way to ensure identical toe-in is to sit in the listening seat and look at the loudspeakers inside edges. You should see the same amount of each loudspeaker cabinets inner side panel. Identical toe-in is essential to soundstaging because the speakers frequency response at the listening position changes with toe-in, and hearing the identical frequency response from each speaker is an important contributor to precise image placement within the soundstage.

 

Keep in mind that all loudspeaker placement variations are interactive with one another, particularly toe-in and the distance between loudspeakers. For example, a wide soundstage can be achieved with narrow placement but no toe-in, or wide placement with extreme toe-in.

[dcl 3,276]

Trying the no-toe-in a the moment: the room is approx. 28 x 13, seated at approx. 15 feet from the speakers & off-center of a theoretical triangulated sweet spot. There just is no seating in the room at such a center spot, much like the majority of concert seats are not in the best sound field. Well, I prefer no-toe-in to the toe-in set-up. Time & tinkering will tell. Thank you Daddyjt for the research.

[Papajoe 221]

If you plot the speaker cone angles of all your speakers, you will find that the so called 'sweet spot' is quite a large area and the louder that you play your system the bigger it gets.

Papajoe

[zumbini 6,150]

I doubt that volume will affect the sweet spot in the average living room. Perhaps if you live in a football stadium....

[Daddyjt 9,648]

If you plot the speaker cone angles of all your speakers, you will find that the so called 'sweet spot' is quite a large area and the louder that you play your system the bigger it gets.
Papajoe

 

Now THAT'S what I'M talking about!!  Point the speakers wherever the h[ll you want, and JUST CRANK IT

[Papajoe 221]

Zumbini-

I have stopped trying to put listeners in the 'sweet spot'. I just play it loud. I like to keep that secret all to myself.

Papajoe

[martin1970 361]

The 60" ribbons don't do high highs that well. I squeeze all I can out of mine by pointing them directly at the sweet spot. I'm also considering weights and taller jacks to make them dead vertical without any chance of tipping forward. Otherwise, I place them about like Reese does, although in a much smaller room.

[SteveFord 1,127]

You have to experiment to see what works best in your room.

One thing with my speakers (Magnepans) is that toe in will really increase the amount of midrange at the listening spot.  It's easy to get too much of a good thing.

[Papajoe 221]

In order to get this type of job done quickly, you need a second person to change the speaker angles as you listen. Alternately, you can put them on turntables and poke them with a pole.

Papajoe.

[weitrhino 1,443]

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/featured/weitrhino.htm

 

The first picture of my system (badly out of date) at the link above shows my Amazings with a sharp toe-in, the last pic shows far less.  I found the soundstage expanded to a far more believable illusion of performance when toe-in was reduced.  At first I assumed that due to the beam-ish nature of the ribbons that a more sharply focused toe-in would be beneficial.  My room is a similar size to dcl's and in my case a slight toe-in produces the best soundstage.

[Nahash5150 10,776]

If your speakers are near walls to the left and right, toe-ing them in helps with diffraction interference.

 

But when you toe in, you're making the sweet spot smaller and closer, and I don't think the axis of each speaker should intersect far inside the room, but more toward the back if possible.

 

I read a good article on this a while back, can't find it right now... 

[B-Man 4,781]

 

 

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/featured/weitrhino.htm

 

The first picture of my system (badly out of date) at the link above shows my Amazings with a sharp toe-in, the last pic shows far less.  I found the soundstage expanded to a far more believable illusion of performance when toe-in was reduced.  At first I assumed that due to the beam-ish nature of the ribbons that a more sharply focused toe-in would be beneficial.  My room is a similar size to dcl's and in my case a slight toe-in produces the best soundstage.

 

You gotta love a guy with a WD hard drive sitting on top of his audio gear stack !!!   

 

 

[weitrhino 1,443]

That's my mobile library

[Gene C 1,748]

Brought the toe out a little more than where i had it toed in...Much better! Soundstage is bigger. Not quite parallel with the wall as the factory specs state but i don't have them 4' from the wall either. Thanks for all the great input guys and to dcl for starting this thread. 

[Gene C 1,748]

Again not to thread jack but i followed the manufacturers suggestion and took all the toe out. They obviously knew what they were doing...(K9's are 8' apart and 10' from the seating area) when i sat in the center the sound came from the center. I have never heard imaging for the 8's or 9's before like that. And thats because ive been toeing those speakers in for years. Better late than never i guess. Going to have to move the sectional over a bit, want that sweet spot hitting my seat. Totally stunned at this point, thought i knew all there was to know about these speakers.

[Daddyjt 9,648]

Gene,

 

Ok, so I have to ask -- what if you were to toe OUT slightly?? After all, more is always better... Right? :-)

 

I would try it myself, but I am out of town on business at the moment... But I WILL be moving the RF7's around as soon as I get home tomorrow night!

[Gene C 1,748]

 

 

 

Gene,

 

Ok, so I have to ask -- what if you were to toe OUT slightly?? After all, more is always better... Right? :-)

 

I would try it myself, but I am out of town on business at the moment... But I WILL be moving the RF7's around as soon as I get home tomorrow night!

Not sure, had these in probably 2 or 3 deg aiming at the center of the back wall. I shut all the other amps and speakers off for this experiment and was completely dumbfounded when i had the K9's dead center.  

 

[DaveStL 85]

I wonder if the Kappas' point-source drivers in a vertical stack make them better perpendicular to the wall.  My Maggies like a little toe-in.  The Amazings have the tall ribbon, so if you're trying to optimize them for a center seat (which the OP is not), they might do better toed-in.  Distance from the front wall also affects my optimal toe-in; the tweeters are currently 3'10" out, although there's a big entertainment center between them and 1'8" behind them.  I suspect that's why my soundstage extends in front of the speakers, and probably also affects the toe-in.

 

I should really post pics, but I'm embarrassed about the center channel (still an Advent 1 sitting on the floor). 

[Gene C 1,748]

The kappa 9's have a rear firing ribbon and the polydome is ported to fire forward as well as through the rear port, so there's mids and highs flying out through the back of the cabinet which might have something to do with the imaging. I'm going to try a little toe to see if I don't need to move the sectional tonight and do a comparison.

[angelod307 63]

yes the ribbon loose the top end off axis, so most tend to toe a touch. degree or two is what I do in the 16' wide area with 2 or so feet away from the wall. the new amazing sounded better facing forward we all thought.

[dcl 3,276]

Note of interest: when fiddling with toe-in try a live recording from a closed venue/music hall/ballroom. I am listening to Virgil Fox, More Heavy Organ: Bach Live At Winterland. Fox's patter between pieces reveals some ambience of the old ice skating arena turned music hall but the real surprise comes with the applause–the sonic space extends beyond the back wall, all the way to the cheap seats, and the side walls disappear. The sense of space, up-down-left-right, is enormous–I caught myself looking up in shock. Toto, we are not in the living room anymore but in Winterland.  Anyone fiddling with fine tuning toe-in might add this to their evaluation.

[zumbini 6,150]

Another fantastic live album with lots of ambience is Jazz at the Pawnshop.

Sit back and close yours eyes and you can almost smell the smoke and beer.