Good speakers vs great speakers

[mas52indy 82]

I recently heard someone say "those are good speakers, but they will never be great speakers." So, what makes a "good" speaker, and what makes a "great" speaker? Is it price? Popularity? Or perhaps good PR/ad campaign? I see a lot of different speaker manufacturers represented here. Are they all GREAT? What is the criteria for speaker selection?

 

[jazzman53 1,276]

For me, it's imaging, articulation and balance.

[Balok 1,680]

At the end of Rocky III, Apollo says to Rocky, "you fight great, but i'm a great fighter"

 

This has nothing to do with speakers, but that's what it reminded me of.

[Ar9Jim 6,514]

Measured performance and reviews are a good place to start but in the end its a very individual personal choice.A great speaker for me may only be good for someone else.Listen to as many as you can.When you find a great one you will know it without a doubt!There are tons of speakers that are really really good,but great is an individual thing in the ear of the beholder.When you think its great its GREAT.

[mas52indy 82]

 

 

For me, it's imaging, articulation and balance.

 

 At the risk of sounding ungrateful for your response, that tells me little more than good or great. By imaging you mean?? Is articulation a synonym for clarity? And balance is??

  

[chiroacademy 833]

Good Speakers = The ones I own.

Great Speakers = The ones I want.  Until I finally buy them, then they become good and the great ones are the ones I wish I bought.

[RichP714 3,163]

One of the first points of differentiation can be, do you want the sound to be 'you are there' or 'they are here'

[mas52indy 82]

 

 

Good Speakers = The ones I own.

Great Speakers = The ones I want.  Until I finally buy them, then they become good and the great ones are the ones I wish I bought.

 

This is pretty close to my definition, which is:

 

Good speakers = Ones I can afford

Great speakers = Ones I can't afford

 

I realize that audio is mostly subjective, but I would like to think that speakers that accurately reproduce the source material (assuming "transparency" of a sort from the source equipment) could be considered great speakers. 

[mas52indy 82]

One of the first points of differentiation can be, do you want the sound to be 'you are there' or 'they are here'

 

An excellent point. I suppose that would depend on the type of music. Orchestral music I would want to be reproduced in a 'you are there' manner. Small musical combos, i.e. jazz, acoustic solos, piano solos and such, I would want to be reproduced in a 'they are here' manner. If speakers gave me a sense of that, then I suppose I could consider them great speakers, even if someone else thought they were only good speakers.

 

[weitrhino 1,443]

Somebody used to have a signature quote that said 'It should sound like it isn't there.'  I always kind of liked that notion.

[RichP714 3,163]

Somebody used to have a signature quote that said 'It should sound like it isn't there.'  I always kind of liked that notion.

 

WHo else?  as a bonus, he gave me permission to use the phrase for zeropointe 

 

 

[RichP714 3,163]

One of the first points of differentiation can be, do you want the sound to be 'you are there' or 'they are here'

 

An excellent point. I suppose that would depend on the type of music. Orchestral music I would want to be reproduced in a 'you are there' manner. Small musical combos, i.e. jazz, acoustic solos, piano solos and such, I would want to be reproduced in a 'they are here' manner. If speakers gave me a sense of that, then I suppose I could consider them great speakers, even if someone else thought they were only good speakers.

 

 

'they are here'

 

Loudspeakers that aim to provide a wide spectrum with little/no coloration from secondary reflections 

 

A good example are Klipsch Cornwall II; whose dispersion pattern has been said to almost exactly reproduce live sound propagation in studio 

 

 

 

 

'you are there'

 

Loudspeakers that aim to re-create the ambience of a live sound space, usually by purposely reflecting sound from your listening room's rear and side walls

 

A good example are Sunfire CRM-2 , which bounce a high percentage of their output off of adjacent walls

 

you may also be interested in:

 

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=17121#post17121 

 

 

[UncleMeat 1,173]

Making good speakers sound great and great speakers sound incredible starts with excellent amplification, pre-amplification and source units. The term "garbage in = garbage out" applies. I have inexpensive speakers that if I ripped the label off you would think they were much, much higher in cost.

 

Speakers that generate an impression in soundstage and non-presence (disappearing so it sound like you are at the concert) have always been the large planar speakers like Magnepans or the line-source design ribbons like the Carver AL-III. When correctly positioned for SH they go from great to outstanding.

 

I will also say that I have heard some impressive booshelf units; and floorstanding speakers. They are more like an "is all the sound really coming out of those??!!??" experience.

[mas52indy 82]

Making good speakers sound great and great speakers sound incredible starts with excellent amplification, pre-amplification and source units. The term "garbage in = garbage out" applies. I have inexpensive speakers that if I ripped the label off you would think they were much, much higher in cost.

 

Speakers that generate an impression in soundstage and non-presence (disappearing so it sound like you are at the concert) have always been the large planar speakers like Magnepans or the line-source design ribbons like the Carver AL-III. When correctly positioned for SH they go from great to outstanding.

 

I will also say that I have heard some impressive booshelf units; and floorstanding speakers. They are more like an "is all the sound really coming out of those??!!??" experience.

 

 I will then anxiously await my MkII upgrade from Wayne, and my BillD upgrade from Dennis this coming January, and perhaps my good speakers (which, BTW, I think sound very nice) will move towards becoming great speakers.

 

[UncleMeat 1,173]

What are your speakers BTW? Remember that they also have crossover networks which usually have electrolytic capacitors. If the caps in the speakers are bad it can be another source of poor sound quality. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how good they will sound when you have those upgraded & refreshed components.

[4krow 6,640]

 The thought that comes to mind here is how much my taste has changed from when I was much younger to what I would prefer now. Bass, deep bass was the important part in music many years ago. Now I am more taken by a set of drivers that can produce a soundstage where instruments and singers have a space of their own. 

[pindrop 330]

The advice on refreshing the x-overs in your speakers while you're waiting from UncleMeat is an absolute. A friend of mine and I tore in to a set of Polk Monitor 10's not too long ago with no prior experience in soldering or x-over refreshing and brought a set of dark muddy sounding speakers to a great, for their price range, sounding set of speakers for relatively very little cash out. The change in them blew us away in the clarity obtained in the mid/highs and in the depth and impact of the bass. Caps and resistors have come a long way in 20+ years.

[PMAT 2,042]

Crap, I used to own Polk 10s long ago and loved them. About a year and a half ago I bought another set for super cheap in great condition. They sounded dark and muddy! I sold them for four times what I paid. Dammit!

[pindrop 330]

Ya messed up PMAT, it really was a fun project and an astounding result. Get another set 

[mas52indy 82]

What are your speakers BTW? Remember that they also have crossover networks which usually have electrolytic capacitors. If the caps in the speakers are bad it can be another source of poor sound quality. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how good they will sound when you have those upgraded & refreshed components.

 

I'm driving Bose 901-IIs (no crossover) and a 10" sub (new). I just had the active EQ completely refurbished with better caps (hence my capacitor thread ), shielded the transformer, replaced the crappy RCAs and bypassed the tape monitor switch. The sonic difference was like night and day. Even the bass is much more powerful than ever before, without a hint of distortion. I've always had a good soundstage with them, even better now.

[UncleMeat 1,173]

Those are all about reflected sound and generating ambiance. Properly set up they are very good speakers. The first Carver set I ever heard was playing Bose 901-IV's; and that was what gave me the bug to buy my Carver set.

[xavionics 2,116]

When I was in high school, I was involved in our Chorus as a Tenor/Baritone.

One event we performed was a chorale competition at another school where a half dozen or so schools go to show off their chops.

We warmed up performing Carl Orff's Carmina Burana. In a library.

I was near the middle of our group, completely immersed in the sounds.

Live, loud, zero distortion vocals in a room that was pretty dead acoustically. 

It was truly spine-tingling!

 

It is that "chill running up and  down the spine" sensation I'm still chasing.

 

I have experienced it:

First in a stereo store mid-1980's with a McIntosh component rack driving a set of Klipschorns.

There have been several others.

 

Occasionally, with the right source material, my KG-16's will do it too.

 

[jazzman53 1,276]

 

 

 

For me, it's imaging, articulation and balance.

 

At the risk of sounding ungrateful for your response, that tells me little more than good or great. By imaging you mean?? Is articulation a synonym for clarity? And balance is??

  

 

 

Imagine a singer's voice having no apparent aural connection to the speakers but just seems to float in space between them. This is what I mean by imaging.  

 

Imagine sounds projected with such pristine purity that every nuance is clear even at the lowest volume levels.  That's what I mean by articulation. 

 

And by balance I mean coherency and fullness thru seven octaves with none being overly bright or lacking.  A balanced speaker is easy to listen to (non-fatiguing).  

 

------------------- 

As a speaker builder, I've found balance to be the most difficult to achieve.  And for me, big line source electrostats mated to dipolar subs comes closer to meeting my ideals than anything I've heard.

 

One reason, I think, is that flat panel stats are so directional that practically all of their energy converges on the sweet spot directly with very little energy bouncing off walls to smear and confuse the imaging.

  

Another reason is that a 6-micron diaphragm is significantly less massive than the volume of air it moves, and is so effectively dampened by that air mass that it simply cannot ring at any frequency above its fundamental "drum-head" resonance (typically around 70Hz).  Thus; ESL's characteristically have astounding transient speed and spooky-real clarity. 

 

Not all ESL's are well balanced, especially transitioning from bass to mids, but the ones that are are magical indeed.  

 

OK... I admit my blatant bias for ESL's but I think the physics back me up. 

 

Anyway, that's my view of what makes a great speaker.

 

Jazz 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rockster2U 668]

mas52indy,

I've got a pair of 901s that I use with my garage/outdoor mobile system which is simply some Carver gear in a cabinet on wheels. They sound good but my Amazing Silvers on my main system are much preferred for serious listening and they are complimented with a pair of Infinity 7 Kappas and a pair of Conrad Johnsons. I'm a very happy camper but a few months ago my mind was blown when I saw what Jazzman was building or should I now say, has built. I'd send you a link but I'm on my I Pad right now so I'm going to ask you to search for Jazzman's thread on his electrostatic speaker build. You won't regret it. I think they may truly define "Great Speakers".

[Rockster2U 668]

The thread is "the psychosis continues"

http://www.thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18130