Need advice on a subwoofer setup

[jazzman53 1,276]

Hi all,  

I'm considering building and adding a pair of ripole subs to my system and power them with my spare TFM-42.  The problem is that I don't have a sub-out on my C1 preamp or on my DBX 223 crossover.  Since I don't want to replace the C1, I'm thinking my only other options are replacing the crossover with one that has a sub-out or adding a separate crossover for the subs, connected to the spare mains-out on the C1.  I'm interested to know if anyone else had this issue and what was done.  Any suggestions?  

Charlie  

[RobertR 847]

  I'd use a pair of Marchand XM-1 two-way crossovers, or equivalent in any good brand.  

 

      http://www.marchandelec.com/xm1.html     

 

You can order them set to any frequency you choose (changeable later if desired).  They split the signal quite neatly, with a sharp 24dB per octave cutoff, and no phase inversion. Then your electrostatics no longer have to deal with bass at all, and will sound better than ever in the rest of their range.

 

Getting the system balanced is the only trick, and if neither of your power amps has input level controls you would need to add simple voltage divider pots on the x-over's output of either the high or low signals, depending on which is overly powerful - one is almost sure to overpower the other a bit.

 

When you're all done the whole rig might overpower you a bit, too, as you will have noticeably more power.

 

RobertR

[zumbini 6,150]

I like the Audio Control Richter Scale for an application like yours.

The original has a selectable 18dB/octave XO (100 or 800Hz) and sells for $50-100 on ebay.

 

 

The Series III uses a readily available 16 pin DIP resistor network to change the XO frequency.

Figure on paying $100 (w/o cal mike) to $200 (complete with box and manual) on ebay.

 

 

[BillD 239]

I bought a Richter Scale III from Z and use it with my C-4000 in my office system to drive my M&K sub.  It works great.

[RichP714 3,163]

I have a Velodyne SMS-1 and like it very much:

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/feature-article-two-subs-10-2006-part-1.html

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/sms1.html

[jazzman53 1,276]

Thanks all!

The Richter scale would best fit my budget and certainly get'er done.  If I don't see one on Ebay by the time I need it, this ART 311 crossover would also suffice.  

 

BTW:

I've become fascinated with "ripole" sub concept -- not very efficient but very compact and it's dipole radiation pattern would excite fewer room resonances (hence, clean low bass with less "booming"), I figure.         

 

  

[zumbini 6,150]

The ART 311 looks like a capable unit for the price.

 

Good luck with your project jazzman!

[jazzman53 1,276]

I've decided against the ART 311 because its sub-out filter slope is only 12db/oct.  From what I've read about Ripoles, it's best to chop off their output below 200 hz with a steeper slope because any output above that excites a nasty chamber resonance (up to 20db occurring somewhere between 200-300 hz).     

 

The Velodyne looks great but blows my budget and I still don't see any Richter scales on Ebay.  I'm now considering two other options:  

 

Option 1:

Behringer CX2310 Pro -  It has sub out with adjustable frequency & gain.  The manual specifies LR 24db filters (I assume that applies to the sub x-over too, as it doesn't say otherwise).

 

Option 2: 

Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover, which provides about every x-over option imaginable.  

I'm already using a Behringer DEQ2496 EQ in my C1 preamp's external processor loop so if I go with the DCX crossover, the signal would have to go from analog > digital > analog once thru the DEQ and then a second time thru the DCX.  

 

Question:  Would a second A/D/A conversion thru the DCX crossover degrade the signal any worse than passing it thru an analog crossover?

 

Question:  Could I move the DEQ to behind the preamp and make a digital connection between it and the DCX?

(eliminates a second D/A conversion but I'm concerned that it the DEQ behind the preamp could affect the gain and/or force clipping in the DEQ) 

 

 

 

[oldtexasdog 2,456]

In my humble opinion--the longer the journey the more items get left behind or lost. When I am looking for a good CD recording I look for Dig to Dig or Ang to Dig it is rare I find a good press Dig to Ang to Dig or Ang to Dig to Ang to Dig. on the remix.

[zumbini 6,150]

I found this Richter Scale Series III on ebay but it's local pickup only (CO) and it's missing the cal mike.

 

The Behringer CX2310 utilizes 24/dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley crossover filters.

 

Most of the time I fed my Richter Scale from a tape or processor loop and sent the sub out to my amp(s).

In my current quad-amped setup I use a Behringer CX3400 located between my preamp and amp(s).

[jazzman53 1,276]

 

 

In my humble opinion--the longer the journey the more items get left behind or lost. When I am looking for a good CD recording I look for Dig to Dig or Ang to Dig it is rare I find a good press Dig to Ang to Dig or Ang to Dig to Ang to Dig. on the remix.

 

I agree.  Even so, since I'm driving 12" wide hybrid electrostats, EQ'ing (analog or digital) to compensate the phase-cancellation is an absolute necessity and likewise for the crossover.  It seems to me that the signal would have to pass thru the same number of filters (be they digital or analog or combination) either way.  The question I have is what arrangement of components would do the least harm.  My current signal path (absent subs) is D/A in the CDP, then A/D/A thru the preamp/EQ, and finally A/A thru my analog crossover to the amp.  All suggestions are welcomed!        

[jazzman53 1,276]

While I'm pondering crossover options, I just ordered (4) Peerless SLS 12" woofers from Parts Express so there's no turning back now. Not gonna get fancy with the W-Ripole boxes, though-- just 1" AA hardwood plywood with exposed edges assembled with all-thread rods and the woofer magnets protruding thru holes in the box sides.  No BS cosmetics here       

[schultdw 393]

Have you ever read the legend of El Pipe-O?

 

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pdf

 

[jazzman53 1,276]

 

 

Have you ever read the legend of El Pipe-O?

 

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pdf

 

 

Oh yes, I use transmission lines in my hybrid electrostats and I love their sound; I can only imagine the depth of Pass' El-Pipe-O!

 

My current project aims for minimal size, minimal room interaction and speed; which Ripoles excel at.  

[jazzman53 1,276]

Ripole Subs Project Update: 

I still haven't decided which crossover I need but the Ripole boxes are almost ready for stain and clear coating.  Boxes are 15 7/8" H x 13 3/4" W x 15" D, built in 3 sections and assembled with all-thread rods.  Each box gets a pair of opposed 12" woofers and the magnets will protrude thru those holes in the sides.  I figure the f3 will be an insane 18hz .  

 

Later I will post a write-up in the DIY Projects section.  

 

 

[kve777 6,889]

I built something like that with a pair of 6X9's in my 84 Toronado, bass was INSANE! for the time. (Early '90's) I think I was following an isobaric design...??? That was many beers ago.

[Rob41 23]

That's some really beautiful woodwork!

 

[zumbini 6,150]

Cool design Jazzman! Looks like it will pack a lot of punch into a small box.

 

[jazzman53 1,276]

Cool design Jazzman! Looks like it will pack a lot of punch into a small box.

 

I can't wait to find out.  I've never heard Ripoles but from what I've read, they're great for music but not so much for home theater-- very clean and very "non-boomy".   The crazy thing is that the smaller you make the chamber volumes and opening area, the lower they play (about 10hz below the woofer's free-air resonance).   Being dipoles, they have a null off axis, resulting in less boomy room resonances but they also can't pressurize a room as you might want for home theater sound effects.  They also suck a lot of power but that's OK... I'll be driving them with a TFM-42.   

[Scarabeo500gt 6]

Those are looking really good! What a craftsman.

[tinpan 5]

Wow, that is awesome, can't wait to see the finished product

 

[weitrhino 1,443]

Your woodwork is outstanding, Jazzman, and I'm wondering if I ever need something built if you're available for hire.  Really nice work!

[Maddmaster 1,001]

Wow, your craftsmanship looks outstanding. I too await your finish project!

[jazzman53 1,276]

At the moment I'm in a quandry on what to do about a crossover and EQ'ing for this project.  In fact, I'm reconsidering the wisdom of my system's entire signal path, as there seems to be no way to configure my current mix of analog and digital gear without having multiple A/D and D/A conversions between the source and speakers (what to do? should I go back to an all analog system or ditch my beloved C1 for some kind of DAC/DSP and go all digital?).  

 

Anyway-- I'm almost finished with my Ripole subs but I can't have a listen until I figure out the signal path to drive them.

I assembled one of the subs tonight-- here are some pics:

 

 

 

 

 

[weitrhino 1,443]

Absolutely beautiful!