Using a Subwoofer or not?

[Dadvw 2,876]

I was wondering how many of you use speakers in your 2 channel setup that have a 10-12-15 bass drivers in them to deliver good bass, and not use a subwoofer? The reason I ask is I am looking at some Cerwin Vegas (other brands I am sure are out there) which fulfills this requirement and then not use my sub for bass? The only reason I use it now is my Paradigm Monitor 9 series don’t have big bass drivers so it gives me extra bass. I am not unhappy with the sound of my Paradigm speakers, just trying to reorganize some and think things through for my final setup of gear........grin

[kve777 6,888]

I use a sub. Sometimes i shut it off. 

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

For many years I was firmly in the bigger/more is better, camp.  While not huge, my main speakers had 10" woofers and were 5 way to spread the load.  I always assumed when it was time to upgrade, I'd be going for something with 12" to 15" at the lower end.  When I actually did go and look for an upgrade, it was apparent that the bigger/more is better, was not a valid assumption - something those with Polk speakers have known for ages. 

 

It's about being able to move the necessary air - whether by one big or multiple smaller drivers - both approaches work well.  Also, more drivers at different frequencies don't necessarily work better.

 

For what it's worth, I went from Sansui SC-45's (5-way/10" woofers) to Mission M74's (2-way/dual 6" woofers).  There's no comparison, between them.  All of the other speakers that made my short list, were in the same sort of size and style.  The big boys got left in the also-ran group.  

 

Does that mean big speakers aren't or can't be great?  No - there just weren't any I found in my price range, that could touch the sound of the smaller, more refined speakers I found.

 

I have since added a sub, and very recently upgraded to a much better one (thanks Raven), and I find it makes a huge difference.  Like @kve777 I do turn the sub off, on occasion, but I usually go running back for the on switch, because the sound just feels lacking by comparison.

[Daddyjt 9,616]

No matter how big the bass drivers in your main speakers are, I believe a sub is invaluable. I use a sub with everything, even my Legacy Focus pair, and they have 3x 12” woofers per speaker. 

[Sk1Bum 11,414]

The Martin Logan 700w & 1000w owner's manual states to set the sub at 70% of your speakers lowest capable frequency as a starting point.  Personally, I prefer 90-110%. The reason being that it just gives the bottom end more punch.

[DrummerJuice 1,287]

I do love my sub and use it all the time, but I find it difficult to blend properly... I'll get it where I like it for one song and then it sounds too boomy for the next. I usually keep the tone controls off on my C-1. I'm thinking of trying room correction software (without a DSP for the time being) to definitively find the right crossover points.

[allflehisequalwhenburnt 576]

Subs are the only way to go.

 

in fact when paired with electronic crossover (like dbx)

you can remove the low freq from your front speakers which will play louder and cleaner with a lot less distortion and allow the subs to handle all low freq

it is an unbeatable combination. 

My towers have a 15 3 12’s and a passive 15” radiator and my 2 12” Sony mobile es subs in my custom built 3 cu ft boxes laugh at the towers when it comes to punch and rumble 

 

10’s are not big enough in my eyes anything less then a 12 is a waste 

a good pair of 12,15, or 18 is the only way to go

[oldtexasdog 2,456]

I love my subs. Especially when paired with a tube amp for the mids and highs.

[Daddyjt 9,616]

8 hours ago, DrummerJuice said:

I do love my sub and use it all the time, but I find it difficult to blend properly... I'll get it where I like it for one song and then it sounds too boomy for the next. I usually keep the tone controls off on my C-1. I'm thinking of trying room correction software (without a DSP for the time being) to definitively find the right crossover points.

 

Try in the following order, listening with familiar material at each adjustment:

 

1.  Lower the crossover point. Depending on the speakers I’m running, I cross my sub anywhere from 40hz to 65hz. Never higher than 70hz. When your mains and sub have too much overlap, it never ends well, IMHO. 

 

2.  Lower the sub volume. I know, I know - but honestly, sometimes a little less output does wonders to clean up the overlap. 

 

3.  Adjust the phase. I list this one last, because it only rarely has proven effective for me. That said, it’s worth a try.

 

if all that fails, then throw in the towel and go DSP?

[Sk1Bum 11,414]

2 hours ago, Daddyjt said:

Try in the following order, listening with familiar material at each adjustment:

 

1.  Lower the crossover point. Depending on the speakers I’m running, I cross my sub anywhere from 40hz to 65hz. Never higher than 70hz. When your mains and sub have too much overlap, it never ends well, IMHO. 

 

2.  Lower the sub volume. I know, I know - but honestly, sometimes a little less output does wonders to clean up the overlap. 

 

3.  Adjust the phase. I list this one last, because it only rarely has proven effective for me. That said, it’s worth a try.

 

if all that fails, then throw in the towel and go DSP?

 

Yes, yes, & yes. My experience with #1, the crossover at too high a frequency tends to muddy the bass.

[AndrewJohn 10,465]

18 hours ago, Brian_at_HHH said:

[…]

I have since added a sub, and very recently upgraded to a much better one […]

 

What did you add?

[Brian_at_HHH 2,691]

1 hour ago, AndrewJohn said:

What did you add?

 

I virtually stole Ravn's Martin Logan Dynamo sub.

 

I only hope she got her Knight Shadow that she was aiming for as a replacement.  

[Maddmaster 1,001]

I run 3 subs all the time. They are especially appreciated listening at lower levels. I found I don't have to crank the volume up for good Bass and still hear details in the front speakers.

 

[itchitch 4,490]

I recently purchased a Elac 3030 (from Jim Clark) for my son's bedroom system.

 

I selected a pair of Polk bookshelf  for him because they do have 'some' bottom end.

(He is running a M-500t mkII and a refreshed CT Seven)

 

We installed it a week ago and he is all smiles.

"We should have done this a long time ago", he ginned.

 

The ELAC has no controls on the back. It is controlled by an APP.

I was reluctant initially but, it so damn convenient.

The phone acts as the microphone for it's built in EQ and DSP

Adjusting the phase, crossover and volume is all done from the listening spot.

 

Yes to subs!

 

 

[PDR 1,194]

Well.....on my PAPs there are 2 x 15" Neo per side (open baffle).....they are fine for critical listening and work

beautifully.....no powered subs needed

 

On my HT set up I use 2 x 12" Daytons per side (sealed cabinets)....they work fine for music, but give me that

house shaking that I require from time to time, theyre partnered with my arrays.... 500w

 

On my X-statiks (and for my up coming new 2 ch set-up) I use 2 x 12" "H" frame servo subs by Rythmik and GR Research

Most musical/clean subs I've ever heard......and capable of chest thumping if called for.......370w

 

So I guess its.......no, yes, yes.

[loner_t 2,568]

On Burmester Vorführungs CD 3 , the last piece is Yim Hok-Man's Poem of Chinese Drums which should show case subs very well. Try it out with and without a sub. 

[Bobby1970 1,451]

Use a sub. 

 

You'll need one or two for better musical reference.  Not just completing the audio lineup for listening and/or HT but adds

"masculinity" to the system, IMHO.. LOL!!

 

In the car audio world there's a saying "you'll always want more"..

 

At home,     majority answered YES. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Bobby1970

[davidc 366]

On 6/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, Dadvw said:

I was wondering how many of you use speakers in your 2 channel setup that have a 10-12-15 bass drivers in them to deliver good bass, and not use a subwoofer? The reason I ask is I am looking at some Cerwin Vegas (other brands I am sure are out there) which fulfills this requirement and then not use my sub for bass? The only reason I use it now is my Paradigm Monitor 9 series don’t have big bass drivers so it gives me extra bass. I am not unhappy with the sound of my Paradigm speakers, just trying to reorganize some and think things through for my final setup of gear........grin

 

 

 

Ok, so I know this is a year old, but I felt I could contribute a little since I have speakers that are like the OP describes.

 

First, I don't quite agree with DaddyJT about phase. It's easy to check phase, and it makes a difference, so when you hook up a sub, you should routinely make sure phase is correct. One of the easiest ways, if the input of your sub allows, is just connect a 9V battery to the terminals and watch the driver to see if it moves in or out. Do the same with your main speakers, and just make sure both move either in or out the same. I don't believe a whole heck of a lot about absolute phase, but you can make sure that is correct also. Meaning connect the + terminal of the battery to the + terminal of the speaker and make sure the speaker moves out, not in.

 

The designer of my speakers, Brian Cheney, thought it was very important. But then again, this guy could tune his own crossovers by ear. As far as his ears go, he was a savant.

 

I sort of think of Brian Cheney as the Bob Carver of speakers. Much maligned for his views, but always proved the other "golden ears" wrong. His VMPS line of speakers won Best High End audio at the CES about 3-4 times. That should tell you something. Brian and Bob are my audiophile gurus.

 

So, regarding speakers with multiple bass drivers...it is possible, but expensive and difficult, to design a speaker system have what you want in bass. What you want, which is sort of the holy grail, is:

 

A very low cutoff (think -3dB down at 20Hz)

 

Able to play that low at a loud enough level (think at least 105dB at 20Hz)

 

Able to play that loud at a low distortion level (think less than 0.5% at 1watt at 1 meter)

 

High efficiency (think above 93dB/1watt @ 1 meter)

 

Now, getting some of these things in a single speaker is easy, getting them all is very difficult. Just because you have multiple bass drivers does not mean you can get all these things. So, it's hard to give an answer to your question because it depends what speakers you have.

 

VMPS used to make floor standing speakers that satisfied all these requirements, but they have been out of production since 2012 when Brian Cheney passed away. You can still get them on the used market though...usually for pretty good deals.

 

Interestingly, allflehisequalwhenburnt above has the biggest VMPS speakers, as well as the second biggest, as well as several subwoofers as he stated. All powered by Carver amps and my guess is he has probably at least 3000watts RMS. I think he's finally satisfied! LOL.

 

I heard his system the other day and it's probably one of the cleanest systems I've heard, yet the bass is phenomenal.

 

But, I think the average guy doesn't need that much...lol. But Ray loves it and it sounds great.

 

If you have no compromise speakers like this, I don't feel you need a subwoofer. But, everybody has different tastes as well. If you like to play your music loud, you have to have lots of bass drivers if you want extended and low distortion bass.

 

Here's a picture of Ray's Super Tower II and my Super Towers. The main improvement since we bought them is mids and highs are now reproduced by ribbon drivers. The cost of these speakers was reasonable as well. Brian Cheney also made that a requirement of his stuff. But...as the years went on, he improved his speakers and made absolutely beautiful cabinets and the cost went up...way up. Most people don't realize this, but nice beautiful  cabinets usually cost more than the drivers to make.

 

When you look at these you'll think...OMG how can that many drivers sound good? Well, remember, it's gotta be done right. He won best in show at the CES quite a few times, and was very favorable reviewed in all the magazines, even the esoteric ones, back in the day. Without bribes of free equipment...lol

 

Here' s some VMPS paperwork for the "smaller" of the two

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ixvf72l261w5wwd/AACFEDE3y4G7P2_dIU4rhlf4a?preview=VMPS_Super_Tower_R_Brochure_B%26W.pdf

 

Here's all their old brochures before the cost went up secondary to the ribbon drivers and cabinets

 

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113199.0

 

 

And here are some pics of the smaller Super Tower and Brian standing next  to the Super Tower II's. (I think it's Brian)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by davidc

[aceman117 723]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:11 PM, allflehisequalwhenburnt said:

Subs are the only way to go.

 

in fact when paired with electronic crossover (like dbx)

you can remove the low freq from your front speakers which will play louder and cleaner with a lot less distortion and allow the subs to handle all low freq

it is an unbeatable combination. 

My towers have a 15 3 12’s and a passive 15” radiator and my 2 12” Sony mobile es subs in my custom built 3 cu ft boxes laugh at the towers when it comes to punch and rumble 

 

10’s are not big enough in my eyes anything less then a 12 is a waste 

a good pair of 12,15, or 18 is the only way to go

I wish I would have installed a sub on my system! I literally fried the bottom 12" subwoofer (Dynavox) on my Silver Editions 2 hours ago! Smoke was billowing out of the voice coil and filled the room! I have 6 original Carver sub woofers as spares (Installed 6 new Dynavox's on both speakers a month ago) and will solder 1 original woofer that I refoamed and will be back in business.

Will be purchasing a nice self powered 1000 watt 12" or 15" subwoofer in the near future. 

Any idea on the best sounding sub for around $400 - $500.00 that would compliment my Silvers?

[kve777 6,888]

I believe in the Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 (car Subs) to fill in the bottom properly. I have used them a few times and I'm back. They only need a 0.67 cu.ft. sealed box. I use no crossovers, just a couple of silver 7t's. Seamless!

[allflehisequalwhenburnt 576]

Wow that sucks. Sorry to hear. That’s the very reason why I have subs. Subs take the abuse not my towers. Towers play louder and cleaner are much happier. Haven’t blown 1 speaker in the in the 2 years I’ve been driving them. I’m using 2 m1.0t mkii opt2 amps 460 watts x 4 front towers can play at 132db undistorted output and the backs at 128db undistorted output. As you see I’m playing at high volumes. 
 

my subs are consisting of 2 American bass 15” dual coil 4 ohm subs. I built the boxes myself, use to build sub boxes when I was a teen. 4cubic ft twin ported and spiked through the carpet to the concrete. 
when David stopped by he heard them on a tfm-42 into 8 ohms. I purchased 2 tfm55s that I’m fully rebuilding then I’m looking to achieve 1 amp per speaker at 600 watts a coil x 2 so 1200 watts rms x 2. Speakers are rated at 1250w rms and 2000 peak. 
 

As far as powered subs I don’t know. As I won’t buy a powered sub. A decent high wattage powered sub was fairly pricey. 
I don’t have any knowledge on this hopefully someone else does

Edited May 30, 2020 by allflehisequalwhenburnt

[MHzTweaker 466]

I have dual individual 18 inch sealed subs which I built. They started as Parts Express kits... then I got a hold of them... LOL

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-18-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7094

 

I actually posted a few photos on their site. The original cabinets are double thick. Internally 3/4" MDF. I added 1inch Baltic Birch marine plywood and another layer of MDF so they are 1-1/2 to 2" thick in places. I cannot lift them by myself off the floor after installing the driver. I stained and clear coated the side panels. I added high grade simulated leather wrap on the front, top, back and bottom.

 

I power each one with a Crown XTi 4000 amp in bridged mono. They say I get a few thousand watts into 4 ohms.... I have my doubts about that one. Anyway... its enough power for my volume preference.

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/crown-xti-4000-power-amplifier

 

 

I use a Marchand 3-way Vacuum tube electronic crossover (currently in 2-way mode).

https://www.marchandelec.com/xm126-tube-electronic-crossover.html

These are the bees knees

 

My mains are Martin Logan Prodigy's .... Love 'em

16"x48" stators on top and dual 10" push pull driver below.

 

I am very happy with the bass I have in my current room. I don't use tone controls but the crossover allows level matching between the subs running at 80Hz and lower and the upper frequencies. I get that guttural presence of bass that is not boomy or overwhelming. It is there. It comes and lets me know there is low frequency extension without being pushy and interfering with the rest of the instruments. The bass is taut and does not linger in the form of room modes or sloppiness. I am happy. I like having heavy dense cabinets that I don't have to listen to.

 

Here's a photo right after I finished them

 

Them in my current setup

 

I actually have isolation stands I built for them but my current room is too small. Here they are in my previous house on their stands. The subs are floating on shock absorbers.

 

The stands also double as bass traps. They are so overbuilt you could park a truck on them.... seriously.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by MHzTweaker

[Bobby1970 1,451]

On 5/31/2020 at 10:29 AM, MHzTweaker said:

The original cabinets are double thick. Internally 3/4" MDF. I added 1inch Baltic Birch marine plywood and another layer of MDF so they are 1-1/2 to 2" thick in places.

Hi @MHzTweaker did you put internal bracings with these kind of walls? 

[MHzTweaker 466]

There IS internal bracing

I got rid of the rounded edged front  baffle and created my own 1-1/2" flat front and added another 3/4" MDF on the top, back and bottom. The sides have additional 1 inch marine grade Baltic Birch. There is a LOT more damping also than shown in the mock up photos.

 

[jazzman53 1,276]

I have a pair of these Ripole subs crossing in down low at 60Hz---- unobtrusive and seldom noticed unless I kill their amp and then their absence is immediately apparent.  But when I play something with profound bass, like Bela Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo, it's like WOW...that's LOW and CLEAN!